Japanese Saws

[beech1948]

I know many here use these and I'm expecting a backlash on this comment but....!

I don't have any of these saws in my arsenal. I have about 20 western saws and am a bit of a saw fanatic with OCD.

I have tried Japanese saws at a few places. The last attempt was at Axminster Tools in Axminster. I found them quite difficult to use. Not clumsy or hard just difficult to get a straight cut.

I found that after western saws I locked my right wrist and elbow and even shoulder and I wonder how far the 40 yrs experience of western saws have spoiled the use of Japanese saws as I got only mediocre results. Attempts to relax these resulted in more off line cuts, keeping wrist fixed but elbow relaxed did not help. A light grip did not help. I took with me my favourite western dovetail saw and a 5tpi rip saw to try out against the Japanese saws and found that the lines I tried to follow were pretty well spot on with western saws but poor with Japanese saws.

The Japanese saws do not seem to cut any faster, do not cut any cleaner. About the only advantage I could see was that the kerf was very narrow.

The try before buying effort took place over 45 minutes and was guided by an APTC guy who claimed to be an expert on Japanese saws.

I'm left wondering what all the fuss is about.

Al

Did not buy anything so felt bad

 

[Cheshirechappie]

That's interesting.

Like you, I've never used a Japanese saw. I'm not prepared to dismiss them out of hand, because plenty of people have used them and do like them, so they can't be inherently inferior to Western saws.

One thing often stated about Japanese saws is that they're better because they cut on the pull stroke, thus putting the blade in tension, which helps to keep it straight. I'm not sure that I understand this - both Japanese and Western saws must move back and to. The force exerted on the blade by the cut is miniscule, especially if the saw is as sharp as it should be. How much force do you have to exert on a sharp saw to make it cut? Virtually none. Thus, the tension or compression resulting in the blade material is pretty much infinitessimal in either case; problems arise when the saw binds, usually because the wood distorts, closing the kerf and pinching the blade. The risk of this happening is equal with Japanese and Western saws - the direction of cut matters not a jot.

 

[Paul Chapman]

I've never understood the attraction of Japanese tools. They seem to do most of their woodworking sitting on the floor, so surely their tools are designed to facilitate that?

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Senator]

I do quite like them but would only use them in the workshop they are razor sharp with a fine kerf and I find they follow a cut line very well but they do take some getting used. I guess that's why I like them it's just so different to what I have always used a tip I read somewhere on YouTube I think, was to use them handle down another words below what you are cutting. I have one crosscut and one rip.

 

[Harbo]

I find Japanese tools very easy to use and have never used them whilst sitting on the floor.
I've got both Western and Japanese saws but my go-to ones are generally the Japs. They have very fine kerfs and cut very accurately and fast.
A lot have no backs or very short ones and as they are very thin can only cut on the pull stroke or else they would buckle.

Rod

 

[MIGNAL]

I like them. They do tend to give a thinner and cleaner cut because the actual steel and set is that much thinner. The difference is hardly night and day though, so a very sharp Western saw is perfectly adequate. I took to Japanese saws pretty well though. I certainly didn't have any trouble cutting to a straight line. In fact I think my cutting accuracy, if anything, is slightly better with the Japanese saws. I know some people just don't seem to get on with that type of handle but they don't get on with the Western Gents saw type handle either. A very sharp Japanese saw might cut a touch faster than the equivalent Western saw. Not that I've gone out of my way to find out, it's just the impression I get from using examples of both types. Speed of cut is hardly a huge factor, it's not as though we are talking of large savings in time.

 

[Mr_P]

David Barron guide

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0sI3VUeNyk

Its on my list of things to try but its a big list.

 

[Senator]

I must say though now I have mine I would not be without them and sadly I get a little buzz/thrill every time I use them.

 

[JakeS]

One thing often stated about Japanese saws is that they're better because they cut on the pull stroke, thus putting the blade in tension, which helps to keep it straight. I'm not sure that I understand this - both Japanese and Western saws must move back and to. The force exerted on the blade by the cut is miniscule, especially if the saw is as sharp as it should be. How much force do you have to exert on a sharp saw to make it cut? Virtually none.

For me, I just don't get along with Western saws at all for precisely the reason that they cut on the push stroke. Maybe my technique is all wrong, but I find that getting started with a Western saw is a massive pain, because inevitably one tooth of the saw drops down the edge of what I'm cutting and hooks over the side and then it requires much more than a minuscule amount of force to cut... and when I exert the necessary force the saw goes who-knows-where and cuts bits it isn't supposed to. Like sometimes my thumb.

With a Japanese saw, if this happens then I'm pulling back, so I can more-easily exert the necessary force to start the cut without losing the alignment of the saw and thus cut more to the line and less me.



Maybe I just need to sharpen my Western saws more, but... frankly, it'd be a massive hassle even if I did know how to do it because they all have a million teeth and I'd be afraid of getting it wrong. It's already time-consuming enough to sharpen my planes and my chisels, even if I didn't get along with them particularly better I'd be happy enough to spend a bit here and there to buy replacement blades for my Japanese saws just to avoid having to sharpen even more things! ;-)

 

[beech1948]

I think sharpening and especially for saws is a must do activity. I use mine quite a lot and sharpen about once per 2 weeks though often its just a touch-up. I never thought of using Japanese saws so I could buy new blades instead of sharpening lol;-(

Like most things it takes practice.

I've decided to buy a Japanese saw to do dovetails, I'm still trying to decide which one. I find people seem to describe Japanese tools with a mystical language completely at odds with the need to "get it done" and in some accurate style of a woodworker. I find such mysticism baffling and such lack of explanation torture. Its either logical or its not.

I'm off to Japan in September on business and a Japanese colleague has asked me to bring him a British ripsaw and a crosscut so I will ask for the return gesture of a couple of Japanese saws and a lesson or two. It makes a change from Wedgewood or Single Malt as gifts.

I'm off too talk to Reading College about sawing styles and techniques with Japanese saws. I have tried out a few and have become convinced that it is my 40 yrs experience of western saws which is the problem. I have tried handles up/down/level/wayyyyyyy down. I watched the David Barron video re these saws today and may call him up for a chat or drop in in passing if that's possible.

Just finished sharpening my 28 " Disston rip saw ready for breaking down some walnut tomorrow.

Al

 

[lanemaux]

Hi Beech. I've got the Irwin version of a japanese saw and have nothing but praise for it. It not only cuts fast and accurate but was cheap as well (on sale 20 dollars Canadian). The 2 sided replacement blades come up on sale every few months but I have not needed one yet as the impulse hardened teeth are pretty good even after a year of use . As far as the technique issue goes , I just relax as much as I can in the muscles and use the redirected focus on following my line. That sounds so Zen it made me chuckle while typing it, but it works for me. As this style is more a site carpentry saw rather than for fine shop work I can't speak of dovetails , but for sawing tenons in softwoods it works very well and was my go to for my bench build.

 

[Bale]

I'm left wondering what all the fuss is about.

There is no fuss. If you don't like 'em, don't use 'em. Simples :wink:

Pete

 

[Stimpi]

I bought one last year took time to get used to it. You would not think that cutting on the back stroke could upset my technique but it did. Does nice dovetails. Took it on site and buckled it. Missed it so much had to buy another. My son says its all about Zen what ever that means something to do with a kimono not flapping open with a knot that's not a knot on a rope belt.

 

[Tetsuaiga]

I don't have much experience with hand saws but I have some fairly cheap Japanese ones.

I like the Japanese one that has rip cutting on one side and cross cut on the other. As they're all I generally use, (mainly use bandsaw) cutting on the pull stroke seems totally normal.

I'd like to try more good quality western saws though. It seems like nearly all the Japanese saws available will be good quality and come very sharp, which probably isn't the case if you were to go somewhere like screwfix and buy a tenon saw or something.

One drawback is they're easy to bend by accident.

 

[gmgmgm]

I'm a fan.

I have one of the Irwin saws from Screwfix, which is actually pretty good, though not for fine dovetails. It's a safe starter saw, for £14 or so, if you want to dip your toe.

I then bought the Gyokuchu set of 3 saws from Rutlands. Gyokucho are a trademark of Razorsaw Japan, and they're great. Watch the "askwoodman" video on youtube for a few minutes worth of intro to the saws and how to use them.

 

[DiscoStu]

I bought a cross cutting Japanese saw from Axi a little while ago when it was on offer. Basically it was a bit of a whim. I have to say I like it. I get a very fine very clean cut with it. Very easy to cut straight with it. I can see the appeal of the dual edged saw for ripping and cross cutting. Because the blade is thin and flexible it is also great for flush cutting.

 

[Sawyer]

Apart from the old keyhole saw, which I never use anyway, I've never found Western saws wanting in any way and enjoy using them. I do own a cheap Japanese saw, which cuts well, but I'm not particularly fond of it. Just personal taste, I suppose.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Yes, keyhole saws are horrible things. I always drilled a large hole at the top, a small one at the bottom and chiselled out a slot between the two. Easy.

 

[markturner]

I have a good mixture of all types of saws, from Adria, Two lawyers and several old E bay restorations as well as Japanese. I have to say, my Dozuki is the saw I use most often and get on with the best. Not sure why, but it seems to cut easier, straighter and more accurately than the others. And it was only £35......

But it does not look half as sexy or feel so good in the hand as my Two lawyers babies.....

 

[beech1948]

I use my western saws just about daily probably more crosscut than rip except for dovetails.

I'm wondering if there is any "magic" in the way I grip saws. Western saws have taught my muscle memory to keep wrist, elbow and shoulder in line and working almost like a piston with the saw. Given that this means a fairly firm grip and positioning of joints does this get in the way of using a Japanese saw.

What is the best way to hold a Japanese saw.