Japanese saws

[E-wan]

I have recently purchased a set of
GYOKUCHO Japanese saws which I am enjoying and finding much easier to use then Western style saws.
https://www.workshopheaven.com/gyokucho ... e-set.html


While reading my copy of Japanese woodworking tools their tradition spirit and use
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/144 ... king_Tools

Page 51 has an interesting section on the tooth profile of these saws suggesting that traditionally different versions of the same style of saw were produced for cutting softwood and hardwood.

I can't find any reference to softwood and hardwood versions of modern razor Japanese saws with disposable blades.

Does anyone know if Japanese saws are still manufactured with a different angle for soft and hardwood?

Hoping that this can stimulate a broad ranging but concise and respectful discussion of individual opinions.

Thanks




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[custard]

I can't answer your question precisely, but I do know that some hardened Japanese saws are widely regarded as being more suitable for hardwood applications than others. For example if you read through the Dieter Schmid web site, they describe some saws as softwood only,
https://www.fine-tools.com/japsaege.html

 

[Doug B]

Michael Huntley had a Japanese saw designed to cut Oak, this may be of interest :-
http://www.woodworkprojects.co.uk/Huntley.pdf

 

[AJB Temple]

Hardwood and softwood blades are readily available in Japan. The blades profiles are quite different and they clear the waste out differently. I have got both but I'm not at home so can't do photos.

I use both Japanese and western saws. For some things a western saw is easier and quicker I find. What is definitely true with hand saws is quality shows!

 

[sunnybob]

Hoping that this can stimulate a broad ranging but concise and respectful discussion of individual opinions.



I'm sorry, who are you and what planet have you come from? :shock: :shock: =D> =D>

 

[Sideways]

Not exactly answering your question but confirming the reading behind it. I quote from a superb tool catalogue produced by "The Craftsman's Choice" some 20+ years ago and from whom I bought my own first Gyokucho saws:
"There are different designs of teeth for crosscutting, for ripping and for cutting on a bias to the grain, as well as different designs for softwoods and hardwoods .....

Generally crosscut teeth for softwood have a parallel even set. The parallel set acts like a knife that severs the wood fibres. Crosscut teeth for hardwood tend to have more of a substatial rake angle. This strengthens the teeth so that they can absorb the greater shock of cutting hardwood. Whatever types of timber are being cut, the general range of tpi of all crosscut teeth vary between 17 and 26 tpi.

For ripping all types of timber obviously the teeth need to be stronger. The blade thickness is increased to to generally twice the thickness of a Nokogiri with crosscut teeth. Again the teeth used for softwood tend to be slightly longer than those used for hardwood, but both with a much wider set. This makes the teeth act like chisels that literally pare the timber in small curls. Again whatever types of timber are being cut, the general range of tpi of all ripping teeth varies between 6 and 14 tpi.

The third style of tooth is a fairly recent introduction known as the Ikeda tooth pattern, this style of tooth is really better suited for use on softwood, yet does give good results when used on hardwoods. The tooth style is designed to be used when cutting on a bias to the grain. A nokogiri with the Ikeda tooth pattern will look and behave the same as a normal crosscut nokogiri, except that within the tooth formation there is an additional raker tooth to clean out the kerf with the same action as a rip tooth, coupled with a slightly thicker blade than a crosscut nokogiri, making any cutting on a bias to the grain a lot easier and shudder free ..."

In their day, the Craftsman's choice covered all the combinations, hard and soft wood, crosscut, rip and "Ikeda" pattern just from the Gyokucho machine made range without needing to look at hand made saws. I imagine that all these are still readily available though maybe not in the UK.

 

[Jacob]

.....
Hoping that this can stimulate a broad ranging but concise and respectful discussion of individual opinions.
....

:lol: :lol:

 

[D_W]

Yes on the range of saws. Most of the saws are designed to softwood as a default, and some will not tolerate cutting very hard hardwoods (the higher end saws are, the more sensitive they usually will be to rough use).

I challenged japanese tool users to prove that you can rip (dimensioning, not ripping paulownia boxes) as fast with japanese saws as you can western saws (you generally can't, at least not with anything inexpensive) when someone posed japanese saws as a good solution for hand tool only work on western woods. It's an expensive way to go about it and there's little good for long rips, unless you have the money to get true custom.

Anyway, stan covington on SMC had a smith make a saw intended to rip american hardwoods (not surprisingly, it was slightly softer than most japanese saws - dark brown temper - thicker than most japanese saws and with teeth that looked like a disston rip saw rather than narrower taller teeth).

So, it's possible to get anything. The cost of that custom saw was $1,500 for a pair of them - stan kept one and didn't have trouble finding another customer for the second - the smith likes to make saws in pairs for efficiency, I guess. I couldn't use that saw at a rate of speed as fast as a disston thumbhole rip, but stan had two professional carpenters try a disston #12 rip and the custom saws, and they were faster with the custom saws, so the disston and the japanese custom saw were probably similar speed. Most will not get a chance to use that type of saw because there's no market for it, but there was nothing about that particular saw that would lead you to believe that you could ever damage it. It was robust, heavy and stiff and not overhard - perfectly designed and made.

The other thing of note is that the japanese sawmaker considered the disston #12 plate to be a "very good saw", and was impressed with the quality.

I have broken teeth on disposable saws with brisk use (z saws gyochuko, as well as a semi-handmade kataba) before going mostly to western saws (because - surprise - they're faster and cheaper to use if you're going hand tool only with medium hardwoods). If you break teeth off of an inexpensive saw (you'll probably notice them broken when the saw starts to cut roughly, and maybe not be able to figure out where they actually broke - but typically on woods like white oak, etc), then just find saws that you don't break teeth on.

There seem to be two forum factions. One that says "the saws are fragile and they'll break on oak, so you can't use them on some hardwoods". Another that says "they won't break". The reality is that it depends, both on the saw and on the user.

 

[Jacob]

..
I challenged japanese tool users to prove that you can rip (dimensioning, not ripping paulownia boxes) as fast with japanese saws as you can western saws (you generally can't, ....

Assuming all Jap saws work backwards I guess that's because the push of a western saw can apply more power than the pull of a Japanese saw. Just ergonomics, nothing to do with saw quality.
Fast ripping (western style) is punchy and energetic.

 

[D_W]

You can do it with japanese saws, too, but they have to be made for the wood, and the teeth have to have more hook. Hook and pressure down on the wood have to be matched (so the teeth on the saw I'm talking about weren't identical, but the effect of the strength needed making the teeth look more like western teeth was a little bit of a surprise. I've never seen a mail order saw like that).

My real issue with speed with the saw was that I don't have a stroke developed and I got tired quickly using it. That's probably in reverse for a japanese user. And I couldn't steer it as well so that I could really lean back and lay into it.

There's nothing in mail order catalogs or auction sites that resembles that saw that I had, though. It could've been made in volume for less than $750, but if you're making a large custom request to a guy who lives in one room and works in another, you (stan in this case) pay whatever it costs.

My original issue at the time was that people were suggesting to beginners that they would be able to work in volume entirely by hand with things like a 270mm ryoba. I'm not convinced those suggesting the method ever tried it (i did. It sucked, and I gave it a fair bit of time to get it figured out).

The other issue (with the custom saw) was that I had to rig up a small ramp so that I was standing on the board that I was ripping. Shorter stuff would've been fine in a bench vise, but that's a no-go with 4 or 6 foot rips.

 

[Jacob]

....
The other issue (with the custom saw) was that I had to rig up a small ramp so that I was standing on the board that I was ripping. Shorter stuff would've been fine in a bench vise, but that's a no-go with 4 or 6 foot rips.

It's fundamentally the wrong tool for the job. Can be made to work but with difficulty.
With a push rip-saw all the force is down on to the workpiece- ideally low on saw stools, no holding required, which solves the problem very sensibly.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I watched some demos of ripping with a two man pit saw (modern one, a special from Thomas Flinn) against a Japanese Maebiki. The latter seemed much the easier way. Part of the problem for the pit saw, to be fair, was that rather than a pit, they had a wobbly scaffold tower, which I am sure didn't help. But no great handicap for a pull saw.

 

[Just4Fun]

And I couldn't steer it as well so that I could really lean back and lay into it.

Did you ever resolve that issue? If so, how? I have real problems steering a Japanese saw, though I have only tried a cheap one.

 

[D_W]

....
The other issue (with the custom saw) was that I had to rig up a small ramp so that I was standing on the board that I was ripping. Shorter stuff would've been fine in a bench vise, but that's a no-go with 4 or 6 foot rips.

It's fundamentally the wrong tool for the job. Can be made to work but with difficulty.
With a push rip-saw all the force is down on to the workpiece- ideally low on saw stools, no holding required, which solves the problem very sensibly.

I got what you're saying, but the real issue is that the saws that we have access to aren't designed for the work. You can overcome the lack of downpressure just by having the correct amount of hook. Trust me on that.

The disposable saws are all flimsy and if they do have hook, it's often too much (so if you're doing something like ripping 8/4 oak, you'll be left with a slow hard-to-steer cut and hand vibration like a mac 10-10 chainsaw (for anyone who has ever run old saws before they had antivibe - they'll make your hands numb).

However, a properly designed saw in the pattern of a small maebiki will have no issue and can get plenty of engagement to wear you out (they're a two handed saw, too) without any untoward vibration.

If there was a market, something like that could be made, but part of the virtue of the saw that I had was that the entire plate was hardened and stiffened (as opposed to the floppy plated disposable saws with impulse hardened teeth). The other virtue to the saw that I received is it would've been sharpenable with regular files as long as they were good quality (another issue with japanese saws, you can sharpen them, but the tooth geometry is more complex and it takes longer than sharpening a western saw.

So, yes, the open market saws are inferior for dimensioning work (the ones in mail order catalogs in the western world). It's possible to have a saw made that is an even match ripping, and would've been an even match for resawing, potentially better in some ways because the handle is far relieved from the plate.

My issue with the saw I had and steering didn't prevent me from ripping a 4 foot stick, but about halfway through the wood, I got off track and needed to come from the other end to stay on the line. That would never ever happen to me with a western saw, not even left handed. It's just experience.

There is no practical solution for a buying individual now, though - you need to have someone on the ground, and an adventurous sawmaker in japan who is willing to live very cheaply (the maker is literally living on an income of less than $20K a year there, living in one room, and using very little tooling. That still results in a $750 saw.

 

[D_W]

(finding these saws vintage isn't that attractive, either - they're not set up for hardwood and usually have way too much hook, and they often got set aside after they lost a few teeth).

One other side comment about them. You're ripping often standing on the wood. The saw pulls the dust out onto the kerf. The longer you saw with a saw, the less close the line needs to be to the tooth line to see it, but you have to get used to puffing out a strong breath every few strokes to keep the dust away. Just another thing to learn.

If the saw I had would've been $200, I'd have kept it and learned to use it just for sport, but the typical thumbhole rip cost over here is $50 and an hour of time to make it work nicely.

 

[D_W]

And I couldn't steer it as well so that I could really lean back and lay into it.

Did you ever resolve that issue? If so, how? I have real problems steering a Japanese saw, though I have only tried a cheap one.

The bigger and stiffer the saw, the easier they are to keep on line.

Two suggestions for you. One is, make sure the saw you're using will go straight on its own. If it does, you can use it like a steam piston and it should stay straight on a line. If it wanders and it has a floppy thin plate, you have little chance. Two is to increase your angle, which means you'll be stuffing the teeth back into the straws, so to speak. It can be a rough ride if the saw isn't well matched to the wood.

 

[D_W]

I watched some demos of ripping with a two man pit saw (modern one, a special from Thomas Flinn) against a Japanese Maebiki. The latter seemed much the easier way. Part of the problem for the pit saw, to be fair, was that rather than a pit, they had a wobbly scaffold tower, which I am sure didn't help. But no great handicap for a pull saw.

I think the pit saw is faster, but it looks enormously more tiring, too. The traditional japanese method for a wide log is two guys with a maebiki - one on each side.

Maebiki are expensive on western auction sites, but I found a perfect one on a japanese auction site for $95 - a big one. Still waiting to find a good clear cherry log to try it out. They have an enormous amount of hook so that they'll stay engaged in a wide cut without having to lift the weight of the saw (the guys with the pit saws look like they're doing real work just to lift the saw at the end of every stroke).

Not sure what the sawyer was doing on the video you watched, often the maebiki user is under the log, but on wider logs, sitting and rowing.

 

[D_W]

....
The other issue (with the custom saw) was that I had to rig up a small ramp so that I was standing on the board that I was ripping. Shorter stuff would've been fine in a bench vise, but that's a no-go with 4 or 6 foot rips.

It's fundamentally the wrong tool for the job. Can be made to work but with difficulty.
With a push rip-saw all the force is down on to the workpiece- ideally low on saw stools, no holding required, which solves the problem very sensibly.

One more by the way, I made exactly the same assertion that you have here before I got a custom saw. I thought that the contest would be much further apart, believing that the japanese saws are fundamentally disadvantaged because they don't use our weight to influence the cut. When stan mailed me the saw and I got it, i was a little bit shocked and thought it was actually faster than my saw. I videoed a rip with the two saws, and the clock doesn't lie (the feel of the japanese saw felt faster, but my clock time with the disston was less - i'm comfortable with it). I will not post the videos because I was wearing pajamas in them - but I did initially post pictures and a video on SMC.

I often get accused of having not tried all of the things that I tried. Charlie Stanford does it from time to time, and a user named Pam and her husband on SMC also liked to assert I hadn't tried any of these things out. The funny thing about this case was that I literally posted a video of me using the saw, and the custom canvas wrap with script that the maker made, and they still asserted that it didn't happen. When you post a video - clearly of yourself - doing what you said you were doing and someone still says "nobody would ever send a $750 saw just for someone to try", what else can you say?

I'm also willing to say that I was wrong about the saws, and that you can make a saw that will saw the same amount with the same effort. It's just not economically viable with the japanese saws, and perhaps not possible without a whole lot of work if you don't have a stan covington finding a maker to make the saw, and doing the arrangements to make it actually happen. Bravo to Stan, it was a fun experiment, it cost him $750 (he kept one of the two) and the next person who expressed interest to try the one I had bought it, so he wasn't out money for the second. (Plus, we got to hear from a supremely high quality sawmaker that the plate of the disston #12 made for "a very good saw", and squash this Pam-ist nonsense that japanese makers think all western tools are junk).

 

[E-wan]

Thank you for your contributions so far.

The following points seem relevant to my own interests

Impulse hardened disposable blades for Japanese saws with a tooth profile specifically for hardwood are not readily available in the UK. Some more expensive non disposable Japanese hardwood saws are available that need specific sharpening techniques. Same applies to second-hand vintage Japanese saws on eBay.

I may look into weather impulse hardened blades for hardward are available from Japan.

Thanks

Ewan

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[custard]

I may look into weather impulse hardened blades for hardward are available from Japan.

Blimey Ewan, that sounds expensive! Are you sure you haven't fallen down one of the many OCD woodworking rabbit holes?

I'm no expert on Japanese tools, and for the most part I prefer using western saws, but I've got a couple of the same Gyokucho saws you have and I find they come in useful for some jobs.

I like using a Japanese saw when box making to separate the lid from the box body,

The ultra fine kerf of Japanese saws comes in handy when I'm making contemporary drawers where I want the minimum possible disruption to the flow of the grain,

And sometimes I'll use a Japanese saw to cut needle point/London pattern dovetails,

I managed perfectly well on all these jobs with the exact same UK sourced saws that you have, plus I've used them successfully on super hard timbers like Rosewood, Ebony, and African Blackwood.

So unless you're envisaging projects far more demanding than these you might find the saws you already have are all you actually need.