Improved hand tool myth.

[Jacob]

Hi Jacob, you said in your original post
"Has there been any development or improvement at all in hand tools"
I pointed out the improvement in materials and engineering of Lie Nielsen and Veritas hand planes, out of the box they are superior to new and vintage planes.

A very short term advantage!

Sharpening and fettling are irrelevant.

Not if you actually use the plane.

Even a tuned vintage plane won't be made of ductile iron.
There you go, two improvements, materials and engineering

Regards Mark

What is superior about ductile iron? The only plane which I had with it was a Clifton and it was heavy and very prone to scratches. I sold it on.
I also got the feeling that cast iron was somehow lower friction but it might have been just because they are lighter.

 

[John Brown]

I'll leave the details for the experts - all I know is that cats tongues feel exactly like sandpaper, and it can't be coincidence. Presumably they evolved that way because they used to do a lot of woodworking before humans domesticated them. Come back to this forum in 1000 years and you may find that the the latest breed of human woodworkers may all have sandpaper tongues - either that or cats will be running the internet.

A lot of us have rough tongues already, although I am dubious about your hypothesis, as the rougher the tongue, the scarcer the woodwork (in my case, at any rate).

 

[BucksDad]

I'd never heard of a Butt Mortise Plane. Watching the Lie Nielsen video on it is interesting. The hinge mortise is marked out and chisel walls established. The mortise is practically done before the plane is used. In use the plane needs a light tapping action so is almost chisel like anyway.

Video here -

Has anyone who uses one found it more enjoyable / easier than just a chisel?

 

[thetyreman]

chisel is the fastest way to cut hinge mortises in most cases, by the time you've set up your router, got the plugs set up, put your mask on, eye protection, hearing protection it could have been finished with agressive deep cuts from a razor sharp chisel and mallet, I don't fully agree that the router is faster, if you have skill you should be able to chop out a hinge mortise in seconds, it's also far less messy, no dust just chips.

 

[Adam W.]

It takes time and practice to develop those hand tool skills though and let's face it people like setting up and using their power tools.

There's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Jacob]

chisel is the fastest way to cut hinge mortises in most cases, by the time you've set up your router, got the plugs set up, put your mask on, eye protection, hearing protection it could have been finished with agressive deep cuts from a razor sharp chisel and mallet, I don't fully agree that the router is faster, if you have skill you should be able to chop out a hinge mortise in seconds, it's also far less messy, no dust just chips.

Yep.
What makes it so fast is that the marking up with knife and pin gauges is also part of the cutting process.
If I had a lot to do the same I'd have two gauges set from the start. Not that I've ever done more than 2 or 3 at a go and usually all different

 

[Jacob]

I'd never heard of a Butt Mortise Plane. Watching the Lie Nielsen video on it is interesting. The hinge mortise is marked out and chisel walls established. The mortise is practically done before the plane is used. In use the plane needs a light tapping action so is almost chisel like anyway.

Video here -

Has anyone who uses one found it more enjoyable / easier than just a chisel?

I can't see the point though it'd obviously be faster than setting up a router. Slower than chisels.

 

[Agent_zed]

chisel is the fastest way to cut hinge mortises in most cases, by the time you've set up your router, got the plugs set up, put your mask on, eye protection, hearing protection it could have been finished with agressive deep cuts from a razor sharp chisel and mallet, I don't fully agree that the router is faster, if you have skill you should be able to chop out a hinge mortise in seconds, it's also far less messy, no dust just chips.

I have a weird enjoyment at cutting hinges into my new door frames with chisel and a stanley knife. I've put new door linings throughout so had a lot to do. Although wasn't best pleased when I'd cut a lovely fitting hole for the hinge to find I'd done it on the wrong side of the lining! doh! luckily I managed to take the frame back out and flip that side over. although annoys me the hinge is lower than it should be as the top is now the bottom. I have a router but as you say i'd have to set it all up and have wood chips/dust everywhere.

 

[HOJ]

I can't see the point though it'd obviously be faster than setting up a router. Slower than chisels.

chisel is the fastest way to cut hinge mortises in most cases, by the time you've set up your router, got the plugs set up, put your mask on, eye protection, hearing protection it could have been finished with agressive deep cuts from a razor sharp chisel and mallet, I don't fully agree that the router is faster,

The negative comments about a particular tool or method seem to come from those that don't have a need to be efficient. In the real world of priced work you adopt methods that improve your productivity.

I use the butt plane to set the final mortice depth relative to the hinge leaf, lock plate or anything else that it could be useful on, and with consistent results, I don't need to use marking gauges, I'm not as delicate as in the video, however if I'm doing a few doors I'd just as soon get my battery router and 6' hinge jig out and rattle through them, 2, 3 or even 4 hinges at a time on a door or the frame, and guarantee they all line up, without having to jam the door in the hole to transfer the marks over.

 

[Jacob]

The negative comments about a particular tool or method seem to come from those that don't have a need to be efficient. In the real world of priced work you adopt methods that improve your productivity.

I use the butt plane to set the final mortice depth relative to the hinge leaf, lock plate or anything else that it could be useful on, and with consistent results, I don't need to use marking gauges,

You should try marking gauges - proper wooden ones not those daft metal gadgets. They set the depths just the same but are much easier to handle and a tiny fraction of the price of anything from LN! You need two, one for depth and the other for width of the leaf, but one will do if that's all you have

I'm not as delicate as in the video, however if I'm doing a few doors I'd just as soon get my battery router and 6' hinge jig out and rattle through them, 2, 3 or even 4 hinges at a time on a door or the frame, and guarantee they all line up, without having to jam the door in the hole to transfer the marks over.

How do you line up the jigs so precisely in the frame or lining? Do you need different jigs for different hinges/doors/rebates?

 

[Inspector]

The negative comments about a particular tool or method seem to come from those that don't have a need to be efficient. In the real world of priced work you adopt methods that improve your productivity.

I use the butt plane to set the final mortice depth relative to the hinge leaf, lock plate or anything else that it could be useful on, and with consistent results, I don't need to use marking gauges, I'm not as delicate as in the video, however if I'm doing a few doors I'd just as soon get my battery router and 6' hinge jig out and rattle through them, 2, 3 or even 4 hinges at a time on a door or the frame, and guarantee they all line up, without having to jam the door in the hole to transfer the marks over.

I have a Butt Mortise Plane (T. S. Wheeler Co) that I bought years ago from LV, much like the Lie Nielson that it predates. It gets occasional use for hinge and lock mortises on boxes. Were I to buy one now it would be the Veritas as it uses the same blades as their router planes and has a nice fine adjustment.
https://www.toolexchange.com.au/product/t-s-wheeler-original-butt-mortise-plane/https://www.oldtools.co.uk/products/wheeler-butt-mortise-planehttps://www.jimbodetools.com/products/rumbold-patent-wheeler-co-butt-mortise-router-plane-89500https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/sho...1265-veritas-hinge-mortise-plane?item=05P3870
This is where the thread originator will come back with his repetitive answer used throughout the thread.

For the most part most doors here are pre-hung in the frame and it is much quicker to remove the old and replace the whole thing. You also get a better insulated and weatherstripped door than fluffing around with making and old door learn new tricks.

Edited.
I'll add that I made door jambs out of MDF for the basement and used remade doors. I used an inexpensive router jig to do all the hinges on both the doors and jambs. Fast and easy when you have 10 to do.

 

[MikeK]

This is where the thread originator will come back with his repetitive answer used throughout the thread.

Sadly, the repetitive answers are not limited to this thread.

 

[paulrbarnard]

Sadly, the repetitive answers are not limited to this thread.

Repetitive answers and not addressing direct questions are usually strong indicators of a bot. Have you checked?

 

[Inspector]

Repetitive answers and not addressing direct questions are usually strong indicators of a bot. Have you checked?

You aren't comparing anyone to a Botfly are you? Applicable perhaps bot not nice.

Pete

 

[mark w]

A very short term advantage!

Not if you actually use the plane.

What is superior about ductile iron? The only plane which I had with it was a Clifton and it was heavy and very prone to scratches. I sold it on.
I also got the feeling that cast iron was somehow lower friction but it might have been just because they are lighter.

Hi Jacob, youve lost me with " a short term advantage" why are better machining and superior materials
short term advantage?
Sharpening and fettling are irrelevant in the context of your original post, it has nothing to do with improvements or advances in hand tool manufacture. You keep trying to move away from your original post for some reason.
Ductile iron, Lie Nielsen and Veritas use stress relieved ductile iron, doesn't break when its dropped and won't warp or twist during its lifespan, two improvements over vintage planes. I haven't noticed it scratching any more or less than my vintage Stanley or Record hand planes.

I hope my experience with Lie Nielsen and Veritas planes has enlightened you, if you need more info on these tools just ask, I make a living using these tools and wouldn't swap them for anything else.
Regards Mark

 

[Jacob]

Hi Jacob, youve lost me with " a short term advantage" why are better machining and superior materials
short term advantage?

I meant being sharp out of the box

Sharpening and fettling are irrelevant in the context of your original post, it has nothing to do with improvements or advances in hand tool manufacture. You keep trying to move away from your original post for some reason.
Ductile iron, Lie Nielsen and Veritas use stress relieved ductile iron, doesn't break when its dropped and won't warp or twist during its lifespan, two improvements over vintage planes. I haven't noticed it scratching any more or less than my vintage Stanley or Record hand planes.

My Clifton scratched really easily when it caught a nail. OTOH my modern Stanley SW 4 seemed harder steel. Maybe there are different ductile steels. Vintage planes don't warp or twist as far as I know - but some of them of the later products from their declining years may need a bit of flattening, probably should have been held back longer after casting

I hope my experience with Lie Nielsen and Veritas planes has enlightened you, if you need more info on these tools just ask, I make a living using these tools and wouldn't swap them for anything else.
Regards Mark

I have tried them but I didn't like the extra weight or the price. Quite happy with a set of ancient Stanleys and Records. Sharpening is the key, whichever you choose.
PS just remembered what P'd me off about a LN I owned briefly - the thick blade slow sharpening and the totally useless Norris style adjuster. Ditto Stanley SW - norris adjusters look neat but don't work very well at all.

 

[mark w]

PS just remembered what P'd me off about a LN I owned briefly - the thick blade slow sharpening and the totally useless Norris style adjuster. Ditto Stanley SW - norris adjusters look neat but don't work very well at all.

The Veritas Norris style adjusters are quite poor as well, I haven't owned a Lie Nielsen plane with that adjuster, their lateral lever and advance/retard screws are very good.

Regards Mark

 

[heimlaga]

There has been a few hand tool improvements since 1945 but really not that many. Most of them before 1980.

A few examples:
-Bow saws (the heavy duty version for use in the woods) made from steel pipe not wood. They reached the pinnacle of development in the 50-ies and 60-ies and then it all went downhill. Nowadays a new bow saw is way inferrior to even the old wooden ones.
-Pozidrive and torx screwdrivers. Significantly better than philips.
-The butt mortise plane. Saves considerable time when cutting several hinge mortises to the same depth. I use it only for the final smoothing of the bottom of the almost finished mortise. I find it faster than doing it accurately with a chisel. Also faster than making a router jig and setting up a router unless it is a significant production run.
-Hällnäslyften. A gadget which makes timber handling way easier. Invented in the 50-ies or 60-ies originally for loading logs in the woods in a time before grapple loaders. Almost indispensible for a log house carpenter today.

 

[thetyreman]

And cats toungues

I was once awakened by a cat, it licked me on the eyelid at 5am cos it needed food, I recon it's about 40 grit equivalent sandpaper, surprisingly rough.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

My Clifton scratched really easily when it caught a nail. OTOH my modern Stanley SW 4 seemed harder steel. Maybe there are different ductile steels.

Jacob, as far as I am aware, Clifton did not use ductile iron. Same old stuff as Stanley.

Regards from Perth

Derek