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james78uk

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Hi
Ive been making wooden gifts for a while now for friends - chopping boards, spoons, shelves and the odd small table.
I have a workshop in my garden - 6m x 10m.
Im lucky enough to have investments that bring me a nice monthly income and Im considering ditching my job to focus on something I love.
From woodwork, Im looking for a net monthly income of £500 to £750 per month after costs of materials etc. I don't need anything more than that really.
My question is has anyone done this on such a small home scale and and found it easy/hard?
Im thinking of selling on Ebay/Etsy and I know they take a good slice the money.
Does anyone find it better selling though local craft shops?
What sort of margins do you work to - is it fair to say if Im selling a board for £50 I net back £20 to £25?
Ideally I would be working 4 days per week on woodwork.

Am I clutching at a pipe dream?!?!?

Thank you for any advice

James
 
Well if you are only making £25 a board lets say thats 8 a week to make your top monthly target
you really need some larger projects /items to up your sales rather than high volume of smaller items

making chopping boards or spoons will quickly get tiring to make £750 a month
remember that its not the making of stuff thats a problem its getting sales and payment to you
ebay/etsy/local shops will relieve you of much of your profit

Ian
 
Go to your local enterprise and business support group to get assistance and critical assessment, write a proper business plan with many contingencies and be uber-prepared for any and all eventualities. Nothing unrealistic about cottage scale industry at all, as long as all the sums add up and everything is taken into account, not just for today but projections and ambitions for tomorrow. As for jumping in head first that might not be a great idea, can you go part time with your job to support things and make a gradual change-over.

But anyway lets do some math, Your cutting boards are coming out at £50 retail - materials £25 - commission ([email protected]%) £1.75 - shipping £5 = £18.75 "profit" on average, that covers your time in the shop making it, your time managing retail accounts and customer correspondence, your time managing social media and your advertising, so your not getting a lot out of it. Anyhoo to get your £500 a month you need to sell 26.7 cutting boards a month, lets call it 27 or 1 a day every day. That's your target if you can get a minimum of 1 sale a day then your plan could work if not then I recommend looking at other products with higher return, or working part time and gradually transitioning to woodworking as a career as you build custom.

If you can successfully reach your customers then it's not a pipe dream at all, good luck!
 
Claymore posted some extremely useful advice on this subject a while back (see below)

It references intarsia but I think it applies in your case also.

Good luck!


Claymore":rkv71x2u said:
Homerjh,
First things first I love the Bunny egg cups (I think you should do a whole farmyard of them maybe a piggy etc) and haven't seen them before (we don't see much scroll saw work around here) and your right Oak is lovely to work with and you can quickly get a lovely finish which is a bonus if you are making things to sell.
Now to actual selling your work, forget Ebay etc as they are saturated with scroll saw work aswell as other craftwork and basically here in the UK we cannot compete with the foreigners on costs etc and they do and will copy virtually anything that they see selling well and we cannot do much about it BUT there is still a way to sell whatever you make AND get a good price and probably do away with posting anything which again is a good saving.
Where many people go wrong is by trying to compete with others making the same sort of thing and basically they all end up losing out because the items they make become "trends" so after maybe 12 months of selling the sales start to dwindle and the buyers move onto something else leaving the scrollers with lots of ideas that work/look great with lovely finish yet won't sell so they either plod on and make a loss on everything the manage to sell or the give up and take up another hobby.
instead of looking on Ebay/Etsy/Facebook etc to see what others are selling why not do your homework nearer home ie in your local town. Now virtually every town or region in the UK is famous for something for example Haworth has the Brontes, Pendle has the witches, The Yorkshire Dales has sheep/cattle and big farming shows and places like Whitby now has a Goth festival. What you need to do is find out what you have local, any historical buildings? and design something for that particular place...... you don't need to go to massive expense creating a masterpiece just something unique to them thats beautifully finished and well presented so maybe invest in a nice plastic bag with a bit of ribbon tied round? (up here its usually Tartan) do some research and pick one place that has a gift shop and either send them an email with a nice photo of your item and explain how you are a "local" craftsman and feel their place would be the ideal place to sell your work and make sure you say it will be exclusive ONLY to them (they like to feel important lol) if you get a reply then the next stage is to take them a sample and go when you know its not their busiest time so you can explain more about your work. I have done the try and sell on Ebay lark and you end up losing money if it doesn't sell quickly and you also have to pay postage and after what seemed like a lifetime and wondering why they won't sell I adopted my new strategy and approached first of all Haworth (I used to live in Yorkshire then) and I make some 3d ceramic plates with picture of the Main Street in full carved 3d in the centre and around the edge also raised lettering saying "Haworth.... Bronte Country" and I sold 200 in 12 months at £10.00 each! (that was clear profit) I did the very same thing for Holmfirth,Skipton Castle, Bolton Abbey even York Train museum all using the same tactics I mention above and as they were ALL totally unique to my studio no'one could copy them and I basically could design/model/cast anything I wanted once I managed to get my foot in the door.
When I moved up here to Scotland I wasn't intending on selling anything and was just going to make stuff for a hobby BUT thanks to the guys on here giving me confidence to sell my Intarsias I decided to use my old tactic and its worked just the same but different craft and country BUT the way I approach any potential customers is exactly the same and you don't need to be a great salesman either (I have anxiety problems due to health issues) so actually meeting customers is a nightmare but if you can contact them first via email and you make sure your work is as professionally finished as possible it usually works first time. When looking for places with gift shops try and visit them and see what sort of set up they have and if the already sell ceramic egg cups then forget it but if they sell oven gloves with chickens on then that's the place to try.
One other thing is when you come up with a brand new design of your own, although its nice to share your tips etc with other crafters DON'T share your patterns or any little trick that is exclusive to your work.... sounds mean but i have had work pirated over the years and have lost ££££££££££££££££ hence reason I don't make moulded stuff anymore as its too easy for someone to copy.
Sorry for the long winded reply but its hard to explain in writing but the tactic works anywhere in the world so you could be in Hull or Holland just do some research not on Etsy/Ebay but Wikipedia and Google Earth and google your home towns local history etc.
Cheers and good luck and I hope it doesn't sound like I am preaching but I like to help fellow craftsmen and women sell their work if possible.
Brian
Ps I picked 3 places that are within 50 miles of my home and they are the only places I will sell my Intarsia's now (and they will only sell my work) and They love the fact that they are the only ones selling them and I love the fact that i can make anything wildlife related and they will buy it so it definitely works and no postage which is great as it cost me £17 to post on of my intarsias off recently ouch.
 
A couple of years ago I was in a craft fair in the Cotswolds while on holiday. One of the people there had wonderful turned bowls and other wooden decorative and useful wooden items. His prices were very low for the quality of what he was selling but while I was there he did not sell anything. I spoke to him and he got the wood for free from friends and tree surgeons and was doing it as a hobby rather than to make much money.

While I do not want to put you off I think you do need to get your outlets sorted to make sure you can sell what you produce.

I went to a talk on keeping pigs and the lecturer made a very interesting point "How and where are you going to sell your produce". The produce in this case being piglets. With a sow producing over 10 piglets per litter the cost of feeding and keeping them tends to escalate. If you cannot get rid of them at the right time and for the right price you are very quickly making a loss and if you cannot supply the quantity and quality went a customer wants it you loose your customer. While the products are different and the business model different I do believe he has a valid point for any business that produces things.

The right outlets may also be the people to tell you the type of stuff that sells.

Good luck
 
if you are happy with earning roughly $2/hour from making chopping boards than sure it's worth it...

You haven't included the time it takes to go get materials, to search where to get materials, to bring materials from your car to your home,time to sort the materials,time to make pictures ,time to come up with ideas on what to make,time to go to shops to pickup some other items needed, time to actually make the items, time to package items-also don't forget about cost to package them, time to go to post office or wait for courier to pick them up....

if all you will be doing will be making useless items which you can get from Homebargains for $1-$2 such as chopping boards/spoons than yes I'm afraid it's just a pipe dream... There is a way to search how much other sellers actually sell the stuff they make and how often/for how much both on ebay and etsy - Start with that and see what actually sells, do your hard& actual calculations beforehand and take the time you think it will take to do everyting and X2.5 that because that's how long it will actually take it..

Oh also don't forget this stuff is VERY seasonal, you will get surge of sales from september-January, from january-september = forget it,you will barely have any orders.
Been there done it, and sometimes I still do it just as pure hobby but not with the useless 1pound items which have no real actual value.
Start with HARD , and I mean VERY VERY hard research backed up by real numbers and search of items you could actually sell in real amounts.

Remember you are competing with mass-produced made in china items, so you really need to UP your game with the items you make and make people see actual value in them.
 
Thanks everyone
Im lucky i can phase out and do things part time to see how it goes, and the "local" customer base is a great tip!
Would the 6x10m space be too small?
 
One more thing to take into consideration when working out your costs is the dreaded taxman he will most surely want a slice of whatever you earn as a business . Ohh and dont forget some kind of insurance in case something you make causes harm to someone or something (pippers out there that will sue just for the fun of it ), Hope it works out for you but as said above by those far wiser than me (not very hard lol) do your reasearch and planning very carefully .
 
I would not dismiss this, but I would not focus on the £50 end of the market. It will never make money.

Take a look at enthusiast forums. For boards think about kitchen knife forums and look at the (US) work of people like The Boardsmith. Requires high quality work but prices are multiples of yours and there is a waiting list. True artisan work can fetch premium prices if you find your route to market.
 
james78uk":1r7tqlh1 said:
Thanks everyone
Im lucky i can phase out and do things part time to see how it goes, and the "local" customer base is a great tip!
Would the 6x10m space be too small?

Yes def. that's the way to go, research your ideas/items you want to make more and start doing it part-time and go from there...don't just burn bridges with your daytime job.
Most of the people would DREAM for 6x10m space!

mod edit
 
If your (realistic) aspiration is £500-750 a month for 4 days a week then you have to accept it is a hobby which provides a contribution to other expenses, not a business. You will be earning well under the minimum wage.

If you try to run it as a business, you need to think about whether it will feel like the hobby you like. Characteristics of a business:

- more efficient to set up machines and jigs to do batches of 10 - 100 of the same items at a time - possibly tedious!
- need to negotiate and buy materials in volume to reduce unit cost - need to fund stock, can you negotiate
- marketing, sales, admin, accounting, invoicing, customer aggro - this will be a chore unless you know you are able.

The good news - unless you are making some very large items - doors, window frames, kitchens etc - 60 sq m should be more than adequate.
 
You also need to consider whether you can use your workshop space commercially, is it a residential property that would need planning permission for a change of use?

Both practically and legally. If you're not bothering anyone at all then worse case you can crack on and just bear in mind that the Council might tell you to stop at any moment, the risk of that determined by how likely they are to find out. If you are likely to be bothering someone, or even if it's just likely that a neighbour realises you're working commercially and reports it, then there's a higher risk. I suspect you'll struggle to get PP for a change of use where you're creating lots of noise in a residential setting, but out in the middle of nowhere you might be OK.

It's not something I've had to deal with as I work purely DIY or as a hobby, but my position is interesting as my workshop is a former Blacksmiths and was a commercial premises. it predates planning permissions being a thing, so doesn't explicitly have permission, but was recently excluded from a Conservation Order removing Permitted Development rights because it doesn't have PD rights to remove according to some list somewhere at the Council. So I've no idea where I would stand if challenged!
 
You will know about the "Mitchell Centre" and "Heart of the Country" being local and whilst these probably might not feature as target marketing areas they do have the occasional craft fairs which you could sell at. Lichfield also has a regular market and craft events so also a possibility? Again the Canwell Show. No idea what the overheads might be but worth a thought. You could also make serving platters, cheese boards etc so restaurants could be a sales area.
60 sq m sounds good, mine is ~ 20 but I have a separate wood store so maybe I'm pushing 30?
I'm essentially a hobbyist who makes the occasional commission so if you want a word with a local non-competitor then give me a shout.
 
A 'hobby' means to me you don't care about money, it is purely a pleasurable activity, nothing at all to do with money, you love it, but it's for pleasure only, and you'd do it for free again and again.

if you want to earn 500-750 a month, that is a business, anything where you are earning money is a business in my opinion, even selling stuff on ebay.

I think it's possible but only if you put in the work involved in creating sales, as in calling people, emailing them, following up leads e.t.c, you need to be entrepreneurial in your mindset. Best of luck to you!
 
james78uk":2unjxd9f said:
My question is has anyone done this on such a small home scale and and found it easy/hard?
Im thinking of selling on Ebay/Etsy and I know they take a good slice the money.
Does anyone find it better selling though local craft shops?
What sort of margins do you work to - is it fair to say if Im selling a board for £50 I net back £20 to £25?
Ideally I would be working 4 days per week on woodwork.


I'm surprised this question doesn't get asked more often. There are plenty of threads on this forum about becoming a full time woodworker, but relatively few about turning "hobby" woodworking into a "paying pass-time" or a "semi-retirement occupation".

In my experience (I'm a full time furniture maker) it's not difficult to make an annual gross contribution (i.e. revenue less materials and other variable costs) of £20-30k, but it's almost impossible to get that consistently up to the £40-50k level that turns bespoke furniture making into a viable career choice by reliably covering commercial overheads. I target £50k gross contribution, I can sometimes hit that for several months in succession, but then it always trips up, consequently I've never achieved £50k across a full year and I'm sceptical I ever will. However, I was hitting a £20-30k gross contribution running rate within the first year, and in all likelihood so can you.

Those numbers, or something pretty close to them, seem to be virtually an economic law of physics for independent furniture makers. I've spoken to makers in Canada and the US as well as the UK, and we all seem to end up in a similar earnings bracket. Which is why so many full time makers share specific characteristics, a supportive partner with a well paid job, bailed out of a city career with a pile in the bank, took very early retirement, split their time between furniture making and more lucrative timber related work like fitted furniture, yacht fit outs, heritage joinery, etc. The other common characteristics are either access to a decent mortgage/rent free workshop, or run a commercial workshop that also takes paying pupils. These seem to be the essential props that make the numbers add up for full time furniture making.

But back to your question. Yes, it's entirely possible to hit your targets and indeed a bit more besides. However I'm not sure that chopping boards and the like is the best way to go. For one thing you'll be bored stiff after a few months, and once the first flush of enthusiasm has worn off there's little enduring satisfaction to be gained form churning out such simple artefacts. I'm not saying you have to produce Guild Mark quality work, but I'd recommend that you raise your skills and your projects that little bit higher.

In my opinion furniture making falls into three broad categories. There's the "thousand hours of training" level that allows you to produce most rectilinear furniture to a professional level (think the straight lines and 90 degree angles of Shaker style furniture), then there's the "ten thousand hours of training" level that gets you to full cabinet maker status where you can confidently tackle the compound curves and complex joinery required for joined chairs and higher end furniture. And finally there's the Guild Mark level, which is more about personal aptitude than actual training, where you're figuring out how to make things that have never been made before, and you're doing it to the highest possible quality levels.

To have a decent part time income and rewarding work I'd argue you should be in that "thousand hours" category. It's nice for your own satisfaction to be a little higher, but in my experience the majority of commissions are fairly straightforward rectilinear pieces of furniture that you're fully capable of making (albeit a little slowly) after a thousand hours of structured, disciplined training.

Skills are the most important component of your armoury, but there are a few other things that come close behind. A decent dry workshop is one, but it sounds like you've got that already. Another is a plan for getting your work to market. Personally I believe that's immeasurably easier if you live in a fairly well off, urban or suburban part of the country, where you have access to plenty of affluent house movers (you'll find they're the backbone of your client base). Having said that I don't have much experience of on-line selling, so I'd be happy to proven wrong. I sell my work via several routes, but I manage to wrangle some free space in a few big county shows each year (that's "big county shows" as opposed to "small craft fairs") which together gets my work in front of well over 100,000 people, plus I've got furniture placed in a few local art galleries and fairly up market interior design shops. In my experience those routes alone would give you comfortably more than the income you're chasing.

A final point is that to make a success you need reliable sources of good quality timber. We're all used to having most goods and services right there at our fingertips, either on the web or on the High Street. Quality hardwoods just aren't like that. It's a highly variable natural resource with a fragmented supply chain, so you'll have to put some effort into tracking down materials. It's a challenge that often takes many hobbyist woodworkers well out of their comfort zone. I once trained at a workshop that held regular open days, the two main questions asked by hobby woodworkers were, "how do you sharpen your tools?" and, "where do you get your wood from?". To make an income you need a ready answer to both!

Good luck
 
Picture frames (art works) if you can get established, farm gates, nobody ever mentions coffins here but there could be something there I am sure if special designing is called for.
 
Bear in mind also the tax implications of this enterprise - if you try to sell items as a business you need to be registered self-employed with your own UTR (which I think stands for Unique Tax Reference or somesuch).

Don't think that you can operate under the radar - the man in the Bowler hat is getting very keen these days since there are so many self-employed folk selling online and pretending to be private sellers while they are in fact running a business. He's everywhere, and he's got access to all your bank accounts, ebay/etsy doings, Paypal account, the lot.

Think about an accountant as well - as a one-man business with simple accounts he's going to cost you £200/£300 a year if you shop around (mine costs just over £200 pa) but he will be able to claim for expenses you've never thought of, so often he works out costing nothing on balance. And having one keeps the taxman off your back.

As for the product, in my experience (20 years of selling books online) it's near impossible to make much of a living selling the bread and butter items - they might pay the bills but there's not much profit in them - you have to have some pricier stuff (with a correspondingly higher margin) on offer if you're going to make any worthwhile money. The key is to try to continuously increase the average selling price of your items by making better more expensive goods.

And don't dismiss online selling outright - the world is a huge market compared with a few local shops and with the right offerings online selling can be very rewarding.

Good luck!

Martin.
 
This is all really useful! Thanks and Glynne im going to drop in to the local places you suggested to chat with them.
Im pretty lucky that I can dip in and out of my career to allow me to get going in woodwork.
Its a good point of getting board with usual stuff, maybe thinking outside the box is needed!
 
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