Health & Safety, has it gone to far?

[Rhyolith]

Injury is not something I treat lightly, death goes without saying and honestly I cannot imagine anything worse than telling someone that their husband/wife/Son/daughter/etc has been killed

I have heard plenty of stories of near misses and horribly injuries to know that steaming through with no regard for Health and Safety is idiotic, however there is the clear opposite side of that too. My own personal expirence has been endlesses roadblocks of not being able to do things due to Health and Safety and some frankly stupid rules, like wearing goggles to use a electric combi drill (that is stupid... right?).

Honestly one of the reasons I started this thread was to guage where the line is. I know I have been both sides of it in my life: From refusing to use the a bench grinder out of fear to not wearing a dust mask for angle grinding wood (seriosuly, wear a dusk mask!). Its things like "do I really need a qualification to change a grinding wheel" that makes me um and ar, do I really? I want to do thing properly and thus safely, but I don't want ti be faffing spending money to satifiy Health and safety rules exesively either...

 

[Rhyolith]

It's the common sense that's missing. It's not really "common" any more. Instead of learning to do things from people who know how, everyone thinks they can become experts, simply by going on line, and watching a few videos. (Oops. I may resemble that remark myself, at times). The point is, an entire generation of young people are missing out on learning fundamental skills first-hand, from a master (or even their fathers and grandfathers). The biggest problem I see with power tool videos, is the disclaimer "guards have been removed for clarity". Well, how about some clarity regarding the proper use of the guards and other safety equipment?

Thats pretty much the problem I have, its taken me 5 years just to have enough contacts to just start learning :? I do think your right, the key is training.

 

[jakethebuilder]

I'm just a hobby woodworker, but I've got a ten year old grandson showing interest in woodworking. He's the youngest of eight grandchildren, and the first one to show any interest at all. Now I have a real obligation to make sure I show him only the safest ways to do things. It will all be hand work to begin with, but it's only a matter of time, until power tools come into play. I'm guilty, at times, of not following all the safety guidelines, but I can't risk passing on those bad habits to the grandson. I've got to pay more attention to safety for his sake.

 

[Rhossydd]

stupid rules, like wearing goggles to use a electric combi drill (that is stupid... right?).

Why wouldn't you ? Most power tools are capable of throwing debris back into your face. In the past I had a couple of nasty scares when I've been hit in the eyes. I never again intend to have to explain to an A&E doctor that I wasn't wearing any safety kit.
Any eye injury is absolutely horrible, safety glasses are easy and comfortable to wear, stupid not to.

I routinely put on safety glasses as I go into the workshop, or do any DIY. It's become like putting a seat belt on when driving, absolutely routine.

 

[pcb1962]

Its things like "do I really need a qualification to change a grinding wheel"

That's a bad example, the Abrasive Wheels Regulations pre-date the modern obsession with H&S by many years, been in place since 1970 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1970/535/pdfs/uksi_19700535_en.pdf
If you've ever seen the aftermath of a grinding wheel burst you wouldn't think twice about the need for wheels to be fitted by people who know what they're doing.

 

[Zeddedhed]

I never used to wear safety glasses whilst framing with a Paslode gun until one day working with a gang of young carpenters one of the guys got a bounceback and a fragment of a 90mm ringshank went into his eye.

He lost his eye and suffered severe nerve damage behind his eye socket. He was 19 yrs old.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

stupid rules, like wearing goggles to use a electric combi drill (that is stupid... right?).

Why wouldn't you ? Most power tools are capable of throwing debris back into your face. In the past I had a couple of nasty scares when I've been hit in the eyes. I never again intend to have to explain to an A&E doctor that I wasn't wearing any safety kit.
Any eye injury is absolutely horrible, safety glasses are easy and comfortable to wear, stupid not to.

I routinely put on safety glasses as I go into the workshop, or do any DIY. It's become like putting a seat belt on when driving, absolutely routine.

I wholeheartedly second that. I was cutting a tiny piece of wood on the bandsaw, inches long without my safety specs, why bother, it's tiny, the DX is running. The blade broke, weak spot at the weld I guess (not one of Ian's) and a fragment of something, I know not what hit me in the eye and though I suffered no permanent damage thankfully, it hurt like stink for about 48 hours and was not pleasant. Point being, it's not the operation of the thing in it's normal state that gets you....it's when something unforeseen happens that you need the protection. With power tools, when something unforeseen happens, it happens quickly! That's why you need the specs on all the time, with power tools. Zed's paslode story is illustrating the same principle.

 

[custard]

I don't want ti be faffing spending money to satifiy Health and safety rules exesively either...

I'm still waiting for an example of "excessive H&S rules", so far I haven't seen a single one.

So to answer your question, "has H&S gone too far?", no it hasn't. People are still dying at work, people are still being maimed on the job, and woodworkers in particular are still contracting nasal cancer in frightening numbers. Do you always wear a dust mask when sanding or processing wood, even with hand tools? No, neither do I, but the statistics suggest that we should.

 

[pcb1962]

I wholeheartedly second that. I was cutting a tiny piece of wood on the bandsaw, inches long without my safety specs, why bother, it's tiny, the DX is running. The blade broke, weak spot at the weld I guess (not one of Ian's) and a fragment of something, I know not what hit me in the eye and though I suffered no permanent damage thankfully, it hurt like stink for about 48 hours and was not pleasant. Point being, it's not the operation of the thing in it's normal state that gets you....it's when something unforeseen happens that you need the protection. With power tools, when something unforeseen happens, it happens quickly! That's why you need the specs on all the time, with power tools. Zed's paslode story is illustrating the same principle.

Thanks for that Bob, I always wear safety glasses when I'm using 'dangerous' tools but I never thought to wear them at the bandsaw. Starting today I will.

 

[Jelly]

I have heard plenty of stories of near misses and horribly injuries to know that steaming through with no regard for Health and Safety is idiotic, however there is the clear opposite side of that too. My own personal expirence has been endlesses roadblocks of not being able to do things due to Health and Safety and some frankly stupid rules, like wearing goggles to use a electric combi drill (that is stupid... right?).

It's about assessing risk, I decide whether to wear safety glasses when using a Planer Thicknesser on a piece by piece basis. I'll look for defects, loose bits and anything that might be ejected and decide if I reckon that the risk is sufficient to justify the decreased effectiness of my ear defenders.

Conversely I always wear a pair of glasses or goggles when thicknessing as that always projects chips and shavings out.

Much in the same way, you have to make a judgement on the drill, will it project chips or dust on this job? what happens if it fails? How likely is a failure? Are you sure you're not underestimating the risk of failure? (people statistically are dismally bad at this) and is the resultant risk one you want to take?

 

[mind_the_goat]

. Do you always wear a dust mask when sanding or processing wood, even with hand tools? No, neither do I, but the statistics suggest that we should.

Same here, but I wouldn't let someone else do the job in my presence without offering appropriate PSE.
Having said that my GF just gives me a weird look when I hand her goggles and ear protection when she get the strimmer out.

When I got my B&Q tablesaw I had little idea of what could actually go wrong, I did figure out the guard was a good idea and could see a use for the push stick, but really didn't know anything else. More recently I've picked up a lot of information on this forum and am now hopefully much more aware of what I'm doing, what to avoid doing and how to spot when things are starting to go wrong. For new tools I figure those things out first now.

 

[DiscoStu]

I think H&S is often used as an excuse to stop people doing things when the reality is that the so called "Rules" don't exist.

Carry out a risk assessment (otherwise known as common sense) and then take action based on that. We all do this all the time, but just stopping to think is valuable.

We don't have many Eyes, Lungs, or even fingers, so best not to be to gung ho about it all when it is us that suffers.

 

[Rhossydd]

Having said that my GF just gives me a weird look when I hand her goggles and ear protection when she get the strimmer out.

That's also an example of a piece of kit that risks injury to others too. There was an interesting article in The Observer earlier this year on the problem of claiming for damage done to passing cars by contractors using strimmers. IIRC One contractor suggested they get 200 claims a year from people claiming various damages.

 

[lurker]

I contribute to two forums this one and one for h&s believe me this post could easily be on the other forum.
We h&s professionals are constantly ranting about h& s gone mad.
If you get a safety bod telling you something you think is stupid you can bet the house that they are poorly skilled.

I notice contractors are moaning about paper trails again we on the other site rant all the time about CHAS etc

The problem the OP has, is the establishment most likely has a h&s bloke who has done a 10 week nebosh course an is calling himself a professional and he does not really know what he is doing.. Took me 4 years to get my qualifications and the another 4 to become chartered.
Fortunately I work in an industry where they value my ability.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I've been doing a bit of rummaging about.

The history of British safety legislation can be traced back to 1802, with the Health and Morals of Apprentices Act. Various incremental additions and new acts were passed as time went on, perhaps one of the most relevant to us being the Factory Act of 1844. There are a great many versions of the Factory Acts, but this one was the first to require a death at work to be reported and officially investigated. Subsequent legislation extended the requirement to injuries sustained at work.

The Civil Service can be blamed for many faults, but they also many things very effectively, and instead of just filing away these reports, they analysed them to determine what caused most deaths and injuries. From this data, they were able to advise on how legislation might be most effective at preventing further deaths and injuries. For example, in the woodworking field, the saw bench and spindle moulder were found to be particularly common among the reports, so the requirements for saw benches to be fitted with riving knives and crown guards became mandatory, and French heads were outlawed on Spindles, with subsequent improvements in the safety records of both machines. The same applied to grinding wheels, by the way - the reason that only trained persons may change wheels is because the records showed a high incidence of grinder accidents were caused by wheels being installed by untrained persons.

As time went on, the amount of legislation and regulations increased (Factories Acts; Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Acts, assorted Regulations, and measures governing everything from asbestos to ionising radiation) so in 1974 they were brought together under the Health and Safety at Work Act. The data gathering of accident reports continues, and the statistics thus generated inform the thrust of amendments to the Act, and to safety drives by the HSE. Back in the 1970s, it was realised that the construction industry was among the most dangerous (as older forum members may well recall!) so moves were made to tighten up safety, starting with the requirement to wear head protection on any construction site - a measure very much resisted by some at the time. The reason for that was that head injuries were very common.

The one thing that has characterised British H&S legislation development is that it hasn't been arbitrary, it has been almost entirely evidence-based. Things are only banned or 'hedged about with 'elf-n-safety' if experience shows that they cause more deaths and injuries than other ways of doing it. Long may that approach continue.

A quick google of 'Factory Acts' might be worthwhile - the Wikipedia entry was quite interesting.

 

[TFrench]

We work a lot in the food industry and some places are ridiculous. IPAF (the people who certificate powered access) say you don't need to wear a harness in a scissor lift. A certain crisp company have it in their work at height policy that you don't need one. Without fail, you have to wear one "just in case". We also have to wear harnesses on stepladders, which is completely ridiculous - you're on the ground before its caught you, and that's if you can find something strong enough to clip it onto! Another favorite is a oven chip company who make you wear safety glasses at all times. Reasonable enough? Yes, for the people who make up the rules who do naught but sit in an office all day, but once you get working in 40+ degree heat you get a little sweaty and the glasses fog up. This time of year just walking in from outside fogs them instantly. No reasoning with them either. Most places use H+S as a stick to beat you with instead of learning from it. Punish people for near misses? See how many near misses get reported.

 

[DiscoStu]

Just clip the harness onto the step ladder! What can go wrong!

I'm a big fan of reporting near misses and the idea of punishing people for reporting them is terrible. That in itself is a serious breach of health and safety!


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[lurker]

We work a lot in the food industry and some places are ridiculous. IPAF (the people who certificate powered access) say you don't need to wear a harness in a scissor lift. A certain crisp company have it in their work at height policy that you don't need one. Without fail, you have to wear one "just in case". We also have to wear harnesses on stepladders, which is completely ridiculous - you're on the ground before its caught you, and that's if you can find something strong enough to clip it onto! Another favorite is a oven chip company who make you wear safety glasses at all times. Reasonable enough? Yes, for the people who make up the rules who do naught but sit in an office all day, but once you get working in 40+ degree heat you get a little sweaty and the glasses fog up. This time of year just walking in from outside fogs them instantly. No reasoning with them either. Most places use H+S as a stick to beat you with instead of learning from it. Punish people for near misses? See how many near misses get reported.

I see you are leicester so so can guess the crisp factory. I went for a interview there once for the head of h&s, had a look around spoke to some senior bod who said I was through to the next stage but I had to do a test, bear in mind I had shown them evidence I was chartered. This test was such noddy stuff to me I just got up and walked out laughing. I guess they got the man they deserved. Probably a ten day wonder.

 

[lurker]

Just clip the harness onto the step ladder! What can go wrong!

I'm a big fan of reporting near misses and the idea of punishing people for reporting them is terrible. That in itself is a serious breach of health and safety!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agree
Something seriously wrong if people are penalised for reporting

 

[Yetty]

I wasn't sure whether to post this or not, but hey ho... I'm a little more paranoid than some, as I lost an eye in a [non woodworking] accident. Although it was many years ago, it's been a prolonged journey and the effects are still felt every day.

Safety glasses – I put them on entering the workshop, I take em off when exiting – simple. Just don't risk your eyes, as they won't grow back and getting them fixed isn't nice. If the glasses get dirty, wash them. If they get marked, replace them. When they are clear, I forget they are on the head. What does this cost me?, say 20-30 quid a year, money well spent.