Health & Safety, has it gone to far?

[Bm101]

For those that think the stats lie, here's my perspective as someone who works at height everyday. I used to 'jump' windows everyday. I'd climb out the window, close it, stand on the window ledge holding on with my fingers 2 /5/ 18 floors up, holding your tools mind and trying not to drop them on some poor beggar 60 foot below. Clean the window then open it, jump back in and move onto the next one. No harness. I used to jump ledges, climbing round the outside of buildings holding on for dear life to gutters, eaves, rotting fascias and window frames. I'd jump from balcony to balcony. We used to use 3 part wooden ladders and we'd bump them. This would involve extending the ladder while climbing it and bumping it off the wall lift a rung, bump it, lift it. Sometimes we'd move the ladders along the side of a building with a fella 3 floors up holding on for dear life. It was normal. Its what everyone did so everyone did it. Never really thought twice about it. I was young, fearless and if I'm honest I liked the risk.
Nowadays you nearly NEVER see it. To the point that if you do, you stop and look and think 'Why are those idiots doing it like that?' Because in the past 10 years odd there has been a sea change. If you're not pricing your work to include H/S recommended safe access then you're doing it wrong. Ladders? Banned except for all but one off jobs that have no other options and then you have a man footing it, tie ins etc
There's reach and wash systems now, you stand on the floor. Why risk your life?
I'm not going to share the stories of men I've known who have died or had life changing accidents like brain injury, but there were a few.
If you'd googled most dangerous jobs in the UK 10 years ago odd, window cleaner was always in the top 3 and normally number 1. I just had a quick (unscientific) look and it's not in the top 5.
Who used to wear seatbelts? Now unless you'e a moron you clunk click. Why wouldn't you?
As rope access worker in a job that most people you meet go with a variation of 'Beggar that for a game of soldiers', I'm all for H/S.
In my experience at least, people who moan about it aren't normally the ones it affects, not really. The ones it affects most are the ones you don't go home to one night, because 'this is the way we've always done it'.

 

[Jelly]

Just clip the harness onto the step ladder! What can go wrong!

I'm a big fan of reporting near misses and the idea of punishing people for reporting them is terrible. That in itself is a serious breach of health and safety!


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Agree
Something seriously wrong if people are penalised for reporting

It can be worse... I once worked as a subcontractor on a site where if the Ops director got the report first, the H&S director would punish you, and if the H&S director heard first the Ops director heard first; because the MD would punish whichever director reported it second. If the MD caught wind of them doing punishing accident victims or near miss reporters, He'd punish them, so they'd then collectively punish whole teams or sites...

Totally insane, it devastated a previously excellent H&S culture, and resulted in all kinds of deceit and jiggery pokery... Not limited to reporting RIDDOR qualified accidents to HSE, but internally covering it up so the site managers could handle it directly... and this was in a very H&S conscious industry.

 

[RogerP]

I used not to be too particular about wearing safety specs. in the workshop. Ageing eyesight has had the one redeeming factor of me now wearing my prescription safety specs all the time - I can't see close to work without them!

 

[heimlaga]

In Finland the safety regulations have gone too far. The paper trail is more important than the actual safety so the regulations become ever stricter while the actual safety is deteriorating.

-You must carry mortar buckets and piles of bricks in your hands up a ladder. Because using a manual hoist is forbidden and nobody can afford to hire a mobile crane with certified operator for lifting a few buckets when building a chimney or laying bricks on a small facade.
-You must do all facade work standing on the round side of a backhoe bucket or on a ladder. Because wooden scaffoldings are forbidden and factory made scaffolding must not be repaired when damaged even so slightly plus that all scaffolding manufactured before 1994 is illegal. This means that legal scaffolding is out of reach financially on small construction sites. Lots of people don't dare to break the law and use illegal scaffolding so they use more dangerous ways of working instead.
-For many jobs you are required to have a license. Licences are issued by big business and paid for by the employer in theory but in practise by the workers themselves. To be allowed to start working again once my healh is recovered I must pay almost a year's pay in licence fees up front. In a country with 14% uneployment those who haven't paid their own licence fees aren't picked for the job and remain unemployed. Those with licences may or may not get a job. I am not going to pay but I am going to work....if the want to put me in jail for lack of licenses that is still better than going bankrupt from license fees.
-You must not use non-CE marked machinery. This means that all machines manufactured before 1994 and all forms of jigs and fixtures and custom made machines are illegal. Upgrading an elderly machine with new guards is also illegal.
Fortunately the superriour court of Finland has ruled that for anyone to be held legally responsible once an accident has happened the person must have caused the accident either through severe neglect or through intention. By maintaining or retrofitting an elderly or custom made machine with guards that are anywhere near as safe as CE-standards the owner or foreman has proven his intention to avoid accidents and cannot be held responsible nor be punished in any way even if the CE-mark and paperwork is missing.
We are criminals but we must not be punished!....the inspectors can harrass us but not stop us as long as the guards are reasonably close to CE-standards!

Something has gone seriously wrong....this isn't about safety...... there is something else going on. Probably civil servants lobbying to create laws to keep themselves busy and safe in their well paid jobs while the rest of us become unemployed.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Just clip the harness onto the step ladder! What can go wrong!

I'm a big fan of reporting near misses and the idea of punishing people for reporting them is terrible. That in itself is a serious breach of health and safety!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agree
Something seriously wrong if people are penalised for reporting

It can be worse... I once worked as a subcontractor on a site where if the Ops director got the report first, the H&S director would punish you, and if the H&S director heard first the Ops director heard first; because the MD would punish whichever director reported it second. If the MD caught wind of them doing punishing accident victims or near miss reporters, He'd punish them, so they'd then collectively punish whole teams or sites...

Totally insane, it devastated a previously excellent H&S culture, and resulted in all kinds of deceit and jiggery pokery... Not limited to reporting RIDDOR qualified accidents to HSE, but internally covering it up so the site managers could handle it directly... and this was in a very H&S conscious industry.

Yes - you can never quite eliminate the human factor. I suppose a lot of careful management is about having the right people in the right jobs, and getting the balance between 'stick' and 'carrot' as right as you can.

Just another quick thought. A very experienced engineer I once worked with said, "Accidents don't happen. They're caused." - which is true when you think about it. Try and remove the causes, and the likelihood of them happening diminishes. Cause of lost eye - not wearing any sort of protection, The flying splinter doesn't aim at people, it just flies. Why would anybody with unguarded eyes willingly stand anywhere splinters are flying around?

 

[Bm101]

Because they're human. I once clipped my back up device to my spare rope and got over the edge of the Lancaster hotel. Thats 20 odd floors up. As I was about to let go of the parapet I realised I had nt put my descender on. I very gingerly hoisted my way back up on to the roof and clipped my descender on. It happens. I might be an silly person when it comes to fettling planes but in my game im highly qualified. Still made the error though. Granted I didnt panic. just climbed u and sorted it but still. it happened. Human factor.

 

[Dan j]

So how far does your responsibility for others health and safety go? However indirectly it might be.

For example posting a picture with an unguarded blade.
We've probably all read the comments on youtube videos by the self appointed health and safety police.

Is there a cut off point where people just need to take responsibility for their own actions?

 

[Bm101]

Simple answer in real life is when others might be affected.

 

[sploo]

On the other hand as the company Director I was ultimately liable for the safety of over three hundred blokes - some of them total retards.

Remember: never go full retard https://youtu.be/X6WHBO_Qc-Q?t=88

Aaaanyway... this, for me, is one of the single most important reasons for H&S rules: an all to large percentage of the population are mouth breathers.

People moan about Part P regs for electrical work, but I've seen some (pre Part P) wiring that would make your toes curls.

There's also the statistics issue (something of which approximately 127%* of the population are bad at). Because I do a certain thing with a certain tool and I've been doing it for 10 years and I've never had an accident it must be OK. Wider statistics (investigated and maintained by a central body) can show how and why certain practices are unwise.

I do agree though that an over the top paperwork exercise is bad, but in a litigious society you sadly need to show that you did tell Mr F**ktard not to do X, before he does X then sues you for it.


* Ahem :mrgreen:

 

[TFrench]

My other hobby is rock climbing, most H&S bods would love it

 

[lurker]

My other hobby is rock climbing, most H&S bods would love it

You might be surprised how many h&s folks are "into " dangerous sports.
Not me: I am a coward by nature

 

[HappyHacker]

In the late 60s while working on a chemical plant, I worked sitting on a 4" RSJ 80ft above the ground, no safety equipment of any type. I did put on goggles while using a grinder though. My foreman commented on some laggers working nearby " They will never see 40" when I asked why hen answered "the asbestos in the lagging kills them".

More recently friend had to put on a harness and fall arrester when working on a platform 10 ft above the ground. The fall arrester had a 12ft drop and the harness was too small for him to do it up. He pointed this out to the H&S guy who said "but it looks good Billy".

I went to a HSE safety day where they asked the attendees who had fallen from heights, a few people said yes and were asked to give a summary of what had happened, after the descriptions the HSE guy pointed out they had all started "I was only ..." It did make me think about my own activities even though I am now very risk adverse.

I now have to fill an a safety risk assessment for all work including domestic (I am an electrician) HSE provide a simple phone app to let you do it. Overkill? Possibly but it does make you think about the risks, children, disabled, pets, etc.

So in my opinion going back to the OP it is not overkill but is often used as an excuse by jobsworths to prevent otherwise relatively risk free activities and anything which stops an 18 year old risking their life sitting on an RSJ has to be a good thing. Also the no win no fee, "where there is a blame there is a claim" lawyers have made most businesses very risk adverse otherwise they spend large amounts of time defending against spurious and false claims.

A newspaper report an incident concerning a handyman who helped a gardner cut a branch off a tree, he had NOT been asked to help by the owner of the hotel that employed him. He put the ladder on the side of the branch that he cut off with obvious results. He got compensation from the hotel owners as they had not had him trained on the use of ladders even though they had not asked him to do the job!

 

[Rhyolith]

stupid rules, like wearing goggles to use a electric combi drill (that is stupid... right?).

Why wouldn't you ? Most power tools are capable of throwing debris back into your face. In the past I had a couple of nasty scares when I've been hit in the eyes. I never again intend to have to explain to an A&E doctor that I wasn't wearing any safety kit.
Any eye injury is absolutely horrible, safety glasses are easy and comfortable to wear, stupid not to.

I routinely put on safety glasses as I go into the workshop, or do any DIY. It's become like putting a seat belt on when driving, absolutely routine.

This is one thing where I will whole heartly disagree. The abosolute worst kind of debris that flys off a combi drill is a hazardous and as likely to harm you as a large insect flying into your eye outside in the summer, so with this logic you should wear goggles outside as well; why wouldn't you? I imagine its entirely possible a hornet flying into your face could blind you I a most unplesant manner, but the likelyhood of that happening is low enough to make it clearly silly to walk around with goggles. This is much my view when using combi drills in the workshop and I personally find that slight loss of vision that goggles subject you to more likely to cause an injury than debris from a combi drill.

 

[n0legs]

I don't becuse goggles reduce the what I can see .

In that case, you my friend need better eyewear. Just saying.

 

[Rhyolith]

I don't becuse goggles reduce the what I can see .

In that case, you my friend need better eyewear. Just saying.

Please suggest

 

[Rhossydd]

This is one thing where I will whole heartly disagree. The abosolute worst kind of debris that flys off a combi drill is a hazardous and as likely to harm you as a large insect flying into your eye outside in the summer

Never had a drill break then ? or hit something really hard in a wall eg flint, masonry nail etc

I personally find that slight loss of vision that goggles subject you

You need to buy decent PPE then. A good pair of goggles cost less than a tenner.

 

[n0legs]

Please suggest

Dependent on activity :-

Excellent for most tasks
http://www.thesafetysupplycompany.co.uk ... ields.html

If you're feeling vain
http://www.thesafetysupplycompany.co.uk ... acles.html

Spectacle wearers can have some too
http://www.thesafetysupplycompany.co.uk ... specs.html

Playing in the rain doesn't need to stop
http://www.thesafetysupplycompany.co.uk ... ggles.html

I usually stick to Bolle and Uvex. Their ranges always have something I can wear with ease and that offer the level of protection I require. But I will be honest I'm using my visor more and more these days, an impact anywhere on the face usually makes you jump.
Please don't skimp on protecting your eyes. I was totally blind for a fortnight in '91, terrifying.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

It's worth bearing in mind that you can lose an eye to an impact that would not even break the skin if it hit a few millimetres elsewhere.

I like to think that I'm a thoughtful and reasonably intelligent person (don't we all?). It didn't stop me nearly routing a finger off when something went wrong and instinct kicked in (causing me to hear the sound of bits of my flesh hitting the router table fence rather than wood chips). The set up I was using - as an amateur home woodworker - would almost certainly have got me a criminal record if I'd asked an employee to use it in a work context (you can see any number of YouTubers doing similar things).

It's easy to forget that - by definition - half the population has an IQ of below 100, and most of the rest of us get lulled into a false sense of security and/or think "I know what I'm doing, it won't happen to me" (I remember being terrified of my big DW625 when I first got it, but soon became (too) familiar with it, same with my chainsaw).

Yes, H&S can sometimes be used (just like Data Protection) by lazy numpties as an excuse to say "no" to something. However, anything that encourages people to stop and think twice has to be worthwhile IHMO.

Cheers, W2S

 

[RogerS]

We work a lot in the food industry and some places are ridiculous. IPAF (the people who certificate powered access) say you don't need to wear a harness in a scissor lift. A certain crisp company have it in their work at height policy that you don't need one. Without fail, you have to wear one "just in case". We also have to wear harnesses on stepladders, which is completely ridiculous - you're on the ground before its caught you, and that's if you can find something strong enough to clip it onto! Another favorite is a oven chip company who make you wear safety glasses at all times. Reasonable enough? Yes, for the people who make up the rules who do naught but sit in an office all day, but once you get working in 40+ degree heat you get a little sweaty and the glasses fog up. This time of year just walking in from outside fogs them instantly. No reasoning with them either. Most places use H+S as a stick to beat you with instead of learning from it. Punish people for near misses? See how many near misses get reported.

That's not the fault of health and safety but the stupidity/ignorance of the alleged H&SE practitioners.

EDIT: Just read Lurker's reply. Guess I got it right!! He's spot on.

Businesses and organisations will abuse H & S if it meets their hidden agenda. We recently had a 'discussion' with Herefordshire Council resuming their refuse collection to our house as opposed to us taking it all the way down to the road. Something that they used to do but which we put a 'temporary' hold on when the Foot & Mouth epidemic happened (living in the middle of farmland that seemed to us a reasonable thing to do ..ie take our rubbish down the 3/4 mile track to the road so as to minimise traffic on the land). They insisted on a 'risk assessment' which deemed that the chances of their four-wheel drive vehicle slipping 'into the field' was 'very high'. That the track was 'too narrow'. Blah blah blah. Pointing out to them that there were public roads that were (a) much narrower than our track (b) in far worse condition and (c) had two way traffic fell on deaf ears.

 

[RogerS]

My other hobby is rock climbing, most H&S bods would love it

Me too. But we carry out our own risk assessment. And that is precisely what H&SE is about...risk assessment. So if you have belayed properly then job done. "Climbing".