Hand Rip Sawing

[Fitzroy]

Afternoon all,

So with the shed approaching usable I'm starting to think about the workbench build. I have a stack (literally) of sycamore that I will be using. It is all waney edged 2" thick, 18-24" wide, 8' long boards so I will need to cut it into 4"x2" to laminate up as a worktop. Appreciate that a track saw would probably be the sensible answer, but I'm not always sensible.

I though I may try ripping some of it to size by hand, will finish on surface planer and thicknesser. I bought a bunch of old saws in a box from gumtree years back with the idea of refurbing them. Epiphany, perhaps there is a suitable rip saw in that bunch. In the batch I have the saw below, 28", rip saw, 4 tpi. Scraping off the rust I can see a makers mark "...wood & son", Sheffield, 1940.

Saw cuts in its current state but pretty slowly. I've watched some sharpening vids, and read a few posts on here about quality files etc. It seems like it's easier to start saw sharpening on the low tpi end so though I'd have a go.

Questions:
1. I think it's worth sharpening the saw as old Sheffield steel in normally quality. Correct, any idea on the maker?
2. Can I sharpen a 4 tip saw with a 150mm slim taper file? I was thinking of a bahco based on the tests on here, sensible?
3. Will any eclipse saw set work or do the have a range of tpi they work for? I can see a number of vintage ones on eBay for £10-15 I was going to buy one, or I am naïve thinking the will work effectively?
4. The tooth pattern is finer at the start (seems sensible) but in the middle many of the teeth seem to 'lean back' quite a way, i thought all teeth should have the same profile? and be pretty upright? Or does this change depending on how aggressive a cut I want, and is a variable tooth pattern a thing?
5. Am I mad for thinking about this, how long should I expect a 2" thick 8' long rip in sycamore to take?

All other comments welcome, cheers.

Fitz

 

[AndyT]

I know this isn't answering the questions you asked, but why don't you just use your lovely wide 2" thick boards to make the bench? 2" is plenty thick enough. Glueing up small sections is done when good wide, thick timber isn't available, it's not the only way to make a bench.

 

[deema]

I'm with Andy on a 2" top.

However, to respond to your queries.

1. Spring steel goes brittle with age, the old test was if you can bend the toe of the Saw back to fit into the hole in the handle and it then springs back with a slight curve as opposed to kinking its good to sharpen. Bending the blade the other way removes any curve you've induced.
2. I would use a regular file for a 4PPI rather than a slim, but a slim wil just about do it. The file should sit in a fully finished tooth just under half of its thickness so you can use all three edges.
3. Any eclipse will do. The numbers DO NOT relate to the PPI / TPI although many sources suggest they do.
4. Looking at the teeth they have been very badly sharpened in the past, in fact horrible! The saw looks to be concave along the tooth line, which you will need to correct. The saw line should either be straight or slightly convex (breasted) but never concave.

I personally do not like saws with variable PPI along its length, the reason for it is that it makes starting the Saw easier. I would rather have the same PPI along the entire Saw, and if it's difficult to start have a variable tooth angle at the start, I.e. Say first 1" at 50 degrees, next 1" at 80 degrees and then say the rest at 9 degree angle. I would start off with 9 degrees down the entire Saw and adjust if necessary. This is both easier to do by hand sharpening as well as allowing for it to be easily changed by subsequent sharpening.

For the saw shown, I think your best solution is to remove all of the teeth, straighten the Saw line / have it slightly convex (about 1/4" max deeper in the middle compared to both ends on a 26" Saw) and then cut new teeth. It's not very difficult to do, the principle is the same as a thread I wrote on sharpening a 99p backed Saw.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I too think that a 2" hardwood top should be more than adequate for a bench top, so that saves ripping the boards into 4" strips. It still means ripping the waney edges off, though, so there's still a good reason to clean up and sharpen the saw!

British Saws and Saw Makers lists Francis Wood and Sons of Sheffield (various locations from about 1898, but Progress Works, Sudbury Street from 1931 - 1959) and says that the firm specialised in making artillery saws. Not sure what an artillery saw is, but it's clearly military, which fits in with the 'AM' mark on the stamp - Air Ministry. Quite often, a date stamped on a tool suggests government supply, especially during the World War years. It's a nice clue for dating the saw though - which can sometimes be tricky!

Cleaning up should be fairly straightforward - consult AndyT's sticky at the top of the board for links to articles detailing other saw refurbishments. As to sharpening, the saw geeks have long and detailed discussions about the angles to use - especially rake on a rip saw - but my experience is that zero rake is far too aggressive with big teeth, and somewhere between about 5 and 10 degrees works well enough for everything I've ever ripped, softwoods and hardwoods. The progressive pitch might as well stay there, since cutting fresh teeth that size will take ages and probably wear out more than one file, and it'll also lose you a fair chunk of blade depth. I'd say only joint until the toothline is straight, no more; then reshape teeth rather than resize them. I use a 7" regular file for teeth that size, but other sizes will do! As to set, aim for about 1/4 the blade thickness on each side, so the kerf the saw cuts will be about 1 1/2 times the blade thickness. If the saw binds, add a tiny bit more set.

If the handle suits you, that should give you a very nice working saw!

 

[devonwoody]

I note, nobody advised how long to rip saw 8ft length :lol:

 

[Fitzroy]

I guess I'll find out and report back.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I note, nobody advised how long to rip saw 8ft length :lol:

With the saw in question freshly sharpened and having enough (but not too much) set, and the job nicely mounted at a comfortable height, probably between five and ten minutes, depending how fast you saw. Five if you're fit, in training, and 'in the zone', ten if you're mortal. It would be much quicker down a 1" board, but those teeth might be a bit big for a 1" board!

I'd tend to saw slowly. I don't do rip cuts like that very often (very infrequently, actually!) so I find it's best to pace yourself. Apart from anything else, it aids accuracy of cut. Mark a nice, distinct line to saw to, then start the cut in the 'conventional' manner, one handed, off hand on the job so that the thumb can guide the blade. With the cut established, change to a two-handed grip, and work away steadily with the saw at about 60 degrees to the job. Don't force the saw, let it do the work; too much force just wears you out quicker and makes a jammed and kinked blade more likely. Keep your head above the line. Take a breather every couple of feet (you'll probably have to adjust saw-horse position a couple of times, anyway.)

Sawdust accumulates around the blade, and can obscure the line. You can blow the dust away, but I find with rips in hardwood the 'dust' is more like small chunks, and it's easier to brush it off, so keeping a small brush to hand helps. The stop to brush the line gives your arm a rest, too.

Slow and steady gets you there on a job like this. Have at it like a madman, and you'll collapse in a kn@ckered heap half way down the first cut! (Been there, done that....)

 

[Jacob]

Cleaning up - ignore rust, nuts tightened then just needs brushing all over with raw linseed oil, wood and steel. Takes 1 minute. Hang up to dry. This will rub off a bit with first cuts but slowly polish nicely with use.

Sharpening - large tooth rip saw is the easiest.
I wouldn't bother with straightening, 'topping' , fussy tooth variations and all the pro techniques, a rip saw is a rough cutter anyway, file the teeth as they are but you need to get the angles rightish so some improvement possible there. But sharp points and an even set are the main thing even if angles are off a bit.
Eclipse saw set good but don't over do it - you can always do a bit more if it needs it.

Rip sawing is hard work and can be a long job - best done fast and frantically, put some welly into it, get it over with!. Over two saw horses so you are working downwards, with your weight (knee) on the board.

There's a video somewhere with yanks having a speed rip saw contest (can't find it) - basically their style is how you do it, very fast - not slowly or precisely.

PS saw age not a prob in general - I've sharpened some very old saws perfectly easily and they keep an edge, though I have a not very old S&J made of untypical spring steel which is not easy.

 

[AndyT]

Jacob might have this video in mind, where unfortunately the camera is on the slower worker at first.

https://youtu.be/UFnD5o4wFGY

If you can bear down from above on a low stool that's best. I posted some experiments of my own with other ways of holding the workpiece, but they were about deep ripping.

This chap is fast

https://youtu.be/iLzcEIef3w8

 

[bugbear]

The saw will certainly need some treatment if it's to be an efficient cutter, and with only 100 watts of human power
available, hand tools need to be efficient.

Given that you're new to this, I wouldn't (contrary to deema, sorry) strip the teeth and rework the tooth line; this also means you'll retain the graduated tooth spacing. You do need teeth the same height as each other, otherwise the low teeth won't cut at all, but this only needs to be done "locally" so a quick topping with a file, angled to contact the saw for about 3-5 inches should serve. Keep topping until most teeth have a "shiner" on top. If there's a super low tooth, ignore it.

I would certainly remove the rust, using 400 or 600 (FEPA) wet and dry and either water or white spirit as a liubricant. If you want to do a pretty job, you could consider removing the handle to get all over access the blade. Doing this also depends on the condition and age of the screws, since replacing the handle is the hard part...

I would recommend making a saw "pointer" of some kind so control the angle of your file (my web site is down, so I can't link to mine). Don't worry too much about perfect angles - the current teeth are fairly poor, and you're not going to travel from "poor" to "perfect" in
a single filing.

File away, but NEVER remove the last of the shiner - it just needs to approach zero size. Try to just the teeth and gullets so that you create even size teeth, but this can be tricky.

Good luck! As you say, big teeth make everything more visible, so your choice of a starter saw is a good one.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Jacob might have this video in mind, where unfortunately the camera is on the slower worker at first.

https://youtu.be/UFnD5o4wFGY

If you can bear down from above on a low stool that's best. I posted some experiments of my own with other ways of holding the workpiece, but they were about deep ripping.

This chap is fast

https://youtu.be/iLzcEIef3w8

Thats it! Old beardy on the left has got the method! If it's narrow you can sit astride and do an almost vertical cut two handed. Perhaps alternating with knee hold down position to give yourself a break.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Jacob might have this video in mind, where unfortunately the camera is on the slower worker at first.

https://youtu.be/UFnD5o4wFGY

If you can bear down from above on a low stool that's best. I posted some experiments of my own with other ways of holding the workpiece, but they were about deep ripping.

This chap is fast

https://youtu.be/iLzcEIef3w8

Thats it! Old beardy on the left has got the method! If it's narrow you can sit astride and do an almost vertical cut two handed. Perhaps alternating with knee hold down position to give yourself a break.

That's a three foot cut in 1" timber! You'd need an Olympian's lung capacity and muscular training to keep that pace up for 8 feet of 2"!

Take it steady - the tortoise and the hare, remember!

 

[John15]

Sharpening a saw is difficult without a workbench and vice so a suggestion would be to buy a £12 hardpoint saw from B and Q which will cut straight ago through the board like butter. Then once you have your workbench built you can restore your saw at leisure.

John

 

[devonwoody]

That was a good read and viewing.

I did notice the winner had the appearance of recovery from a KO at the end. :wink:

 

[bugbear]

That's a three foot cut in 1" timber! You'd need an Olympian's lung capacity and muscular training to keep that pace up for 8 feet of 2"!

Take it steady - the tortoise and the hare, remember!

Yeah - if you've got a marathon ahead, you'd do better to learn from Eliud Kipchoge, not Usain Bolt!

BugBear

 

[matthewwh]

The responses so far cover pretty much everything, the only tip I can add is to clamp a batten and run the saw flat along it to create a little starter groove for your cut. It doesn't need to be deep and you only need one on the face where the teeth enter the wood, but it will reduce any tendency to wander if the set isn't perfectly even.

I too would be looking for a steady comfortable rhythm rather than going at it hammer and tongs, but that's just personal preference.

 

[Jacob]

.....
I too would be looking for a steady comfortable rhythm rather than going at it hammer and tongs, but that's just personal preference.

Ripping is a bit like chopping with an axe - each stroke has to be hard or you won't get anywhere, though you can pause between strokes or bursts if you feel a bit tired!

 

[matthewwh]

Indeed, concentrated effort into the forward stroke, conserve energy everywhere else, a bit like mowing with a scythe.

 

[AndyT]

In my experience, an old saw sharpened as a rip saw, will out perform a modern hardpoint. Although current saws are very cheap and very sharp, they are optimised for cross cutting, which is far more commonly done by hand than ripping is.

 

[Orraloon]

In my experience, an old saw sharpened as a rip saw, will out perform a modern hardpoint. Although current saws are very cheap and very sharp, they are optimised for cross cutting, which is far more commonly done by hand than ripping is.

Have to agree with that. Ripping with a crosscut only gets you a sore arm.
Apart from a few custom makers nobody makes rip saws now. Those old ones are worth saving. I have a couple of old saved ripsaws and they do get used at times to keep things quiet and not disturb the neighbours. Faced with multiple 8 foot cuts in 2'' hardwood however I would likely take the easy option and just burn electrons.
Regards
John