Hand cut curved rebates

[Muina]

Blimey, it's been a long time since I've posted on here!

As everyone does (I think?) I've been thinking about the old times before routers and electricity powered spindle moulders. The reason I've been thinking about this isn't because I have some disturbing past-life nostalgia, it's because I ran into a little problem in my current project.

The project is a gothic arched window (with mirrored glass to make it, well, a mirror...), now in modern times rebating the arched top and glazing bars would be quite easy with a bearing guided router bit, but how would this curved rebate have been cut when all we had were elbow powered hand tools?

The only thing I could really think of is that the craftsman would, as is so often the case, make a tool to suit the task. In this case that tool would, in my mind, be a rebate plane with a sole curved in its length rather like a compass plane. But surely this would mean you'd have to make a brand new plane for every slightly different curve, unless I'm missing something in the realm of an adjustable version?

Thanks for reading and any help is greatly appreciated

Anthony

 

[Jacob]

...... But surely this would mean you'd have to make a brand new plane for every slightly different curve, unless I'm missing something in the realm of an adjustable version?

Thanks for reading and any help is greatly appreciated

Anthony

You might need a radius smaller than the curve you are cutting but it doesn't have to be a perfect match.
Think of round spokeshaves - only one size available - the working radius altered by setting the blade in or out.
Come to think, there are easier ways - the obvious one being to build up the profile with 2 sawn profiles.

 

[Muina]

Good point, I suppose like you say if you have a smaller radius, then if you put a depth stop and a fence... I can feel a new project coming on!

Thankyou

Anthony

 

[dunbarhamlin]

IIRC Kingshott mentions making curved planes ad hoc in his video on special planes.

 

[DuncanA]

There are old adjustable wooden compass planes. I've never seen one but it's possible someone in the past made an adjustable compass rebate plane - they're certainly are rebate planes about with a fixed curvature for the sole, which I think were sometimes user made.

Althoug, I was watching an episode of the Woodwrights Shop with Roy Underhill (This One) some time ago where he was making a cabinet with a panelled front with arched tops, which is possibly similar to what you're describing, and the answer to how it was made was simply to carve it (with spoke shaves, chisels and a router plane I think), which depending on how many you're making may sometimes be the answer rather than spending time on making custom tools.

EDIT: re-reading your question it strikes me that I may have misinterpreted the direction of the curve and the rebate - another unusual plane that may be relevant is something like this, which I've never seen other than in this small picture

 

[Racers]

Coach makers had lots of curved rebate planes for windows and panels.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=coach ... 40&bih=728

Pete

 

[AndyT]

For the sort of curved work commonly found in sash window heads, before the introduction of the spindle moulder, compassed planes would indeed have been used. For the rebate, most of the preliminary work would have been done with a chisel, with a plane to clean up.
These are a pair of compassed rebate planes, one for the bed and one for the side

These were listed in catalogues but could also be made by cutting down an ordinary, cheap rebate plane and such user adapted tools are fairly common.

To cut the moulding, compassed moulding planes were used, until mechanisation but they are not common and I don't have one.
There were also short bed profiled shaves in wood.


The later alternative was a specialist shave for the rebate which was like a very short moving fillister with a fence to set the width of the cut. Actually it needed two fences so it could be used in either direction, to suit the grain orientation. This is the lower tool in this picture

To cut a moulding on a curve, you can use the other tool shown which is like a very short bed moulding plane shaped to match the glazing bars. These needed to be made as mirror image pairs, again to allow you to work the right way of the grain. Several standard profiles were offered.

These metal tools came from toolkits of mid C20 joiners. I expect they would have been used for repairs or one off jobs, after mass production by machinery but before the portable electric router.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

EDIT: re-reading your question it strikes me that I may have misinterpreted the direction of the curve and the rebate - another unusual plane that may be relevant is something like this, which I've never seen other than in this small picture

That's a strangely appealing plane isn't it ? I've seen the odd one for sale and I keep getting the urge to buy one, although I have no use for it.
It is a coopers sun plane, intended for leveling off the top of the staves. It's not clear to me quite why this needed a curved plane - the cutter does not go right to the edges of the sole, so no use for cutting a rebate. I guess if you wanted a really challenging job you could make a cross between this and a badger plane ... The curve would be on your side, I guess

Edited to add - this one looks to be made for a left handed cooper ?

 

[Muina]

All very interesting finds, Andy's first picture is exactly what I had in mind, although I didn't think the side curved plane would be entirely necessary. Still, if that used to be commonplace it must've been needed.

Duncan, what's strange is I haven't seen that episode, and I absolutely love Roy's show!

It may be an idea to experiment with some of these methods, find which one gets the best results

Thankyou

Anthony

 

[AndyT]

As an interesting digression, and to pick up part of the original question, there have been some designs of plough or rebate planes to work on curves, which were adjustable to different curves. Often, they used a flexible steel strip, a bit like the ordinary compass plane, which does not cut right to the edge. For extreme ingenuity, have a think about how to do circle-on-circle work, such as where a circular window is set in a curved wall.
Tools to do this are firmly in the rare and expensive category. For example, look here

http://www.davidstanley.com/tools we have sold 3.htm and scroll down to the Sym and Falconer ploughs.

I think it helps demonstrate how much good work can be done with the simplest tools - compasses, chisels and gouges.

 

[Trafalgar]

Blimey, it's been a long time since I've posted on here!

As everyone does (I think?) I've been thinking about the old times before routers and electricity powered spindle moulders. The reason I've been thinking about this isn't because I have some disturbing past-life nostalgia, it's because I ran into a little problem in my current project.

The project is a gothic arched window (with mirrored glass to make it, well, a mirror...), now in modern times rebating the arched top and glazing bars would be quite easy with a bearing guided router bit, but how would this curved rebate have been cut when all we had were elbow powered hand tools?

The only thing I could really think of is that the craftsman would, as is so often the case, make a tool to suit the task. In this case that tool would, in my mind, be a rebate plane with a sole curved in its length rather like a compass plane. But surely this would mean you'd have to make a brand new plane for every slightly different curve, unless I'm missing something in the realm of an adjustable version?

Thanks for reading and any help is greatly appreciated

Anthony

You can do this with a Stanley 66 beading tool (or L-N equiv.) a straight cutter, and the curved fence that comes with the tool. A sash shave with a straight cutter will also work on the glazing bars but so will the 66.

You can cut the entire rebate with the 66 or remove bulk waste with a mallet and chisel (being very careful to note how the grain is running) then clean the whole thing with the 66 and bring it your layout lines. You need a marking gauge with a curved fence too to scratch the width and depth of the rebate all around.

Cheers,

Charles

 

[Muina]

Andy, there are some real beautiful tools on that site, though I can imagine them being rather expensive and more for their antique appeal than useability (though I have noticed even some of the most "unuseable" antique tools can produce fantastically good work). Isn't it strange though how you don't automatically think of the curve on a side, rather on the bottom of the plane. With the curve on the side of the plane however, I can imagine the plane being quite difficult to use, also most of the time you will hit short grain, risking tearout or even blowout.

Charles, I did think about some sort of beading tool but I figured with such a large area to cut it would be difficult to hold the tool accurately throughout the full cut, although cutting the majority of the waste with a chisel would eliminate that problem almost completely. That will be one of the methods I'll experiment with, that'll also give me a reason to buy a new Lie Nielsen

Thank you

Anthony