Groves dovetail

[richarddownunder]

Hi there

Picked this up at a junk shop for a trivial sum. I'd appreciate some advice on how to restore it - I presume it is worth restoring being a Groves (which I understand were a good make in the day) and being reasonably straight and not especially rusty. It looks to me like the split nuts are somewhat butchered (as is the tooth profile) and I was hoping for some suggestions about how to get the nuts out and the best approach for re-sharpening something like this. The medallions are also a bit asymmetrical - don’t know if that is typical or whether they have been sanded on one side. Any idea of the age of

this saw? I suspect it is fairly old.

Cheers
Richard

 

[deema]

You need to take an old screwdriver and file or grind away the centre to fit the nuts. On how to sharpen / restore here is a thread a wrote a while ago on how to do it

hand-saw-restoration-and-re-teething-of-a-99p-saw-t98494.html

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Potentially, that's a nice little saw. The Groves saws I own have the nicest handles of all my vintage saws for hand-fit and for appearance.

The nuts don't look to have been butchered at all, but my advice would be to leave them in. The threads on the bolts were often rather badly formed, and it can be the very devil of a job to re-install nuts once separated from their bolts. It does look as if they've turned at some point in their life, but that's not unusual; they have a bit of a reputation for loosening in service. It's OK to 'nip them up', but don't overdo the force.

On cleaning, a wipe over the handle with a solvent such as meths to lift the dirt, or the restorer solution detailed in AndyT's sticky threads on tool restoration, followed by a good wipe dry and a coat of wax should be all it needs. The metalwork just wants a bit of work with wire wool and white spirit or meths, then a rub over the blade with aluminium foil and Autosol (which will smooth it nicely), then a wax, and some attention to the toothline - which does look decidedly snaggle-toothed!

In summary, I'd do as little as possible to get the saw clean and working, and leave as much of the patina as you can.

 

[AndyT]

I agree with CC, that saw doesn't need much to keep it looking old, but in workable condition.
It's certainly in better shape than the last one I restored, which may give you some tips:

bristol-saw-restoration-t86283.html

 

[ED65]

Man those teeth have been butchered, although you do see worse

If the rest of the saw is as bad as the toe I think you'll have to joint it flat and start again. This is fairly considerable effort so be prepared if you take it on. I wouldn't want to use the same file I use for jointing teeth for this much metal removal, much too slow (might take a solid 20 minutes), a 12" or greater ******* or Coarse would be better for the bulk of the work. At least after this you'll be sharpening rip so that part of the job will be easy!

In addition to the bad shaping there's far far too much set applied currently, so if you don't start from scratch gently hammer the tooth line flat and then set again when you're done sharpening.

Best of luck with the nuts if you try to take them out.

 

[richarddownunder]

Thanks for the replies all. Actually, turns out the nuts were quite loose and I couldnt help myself and undid them. However, the threaded bits dont want to push through the blade for some reason even though they wobble a bit, so maybe I'll put it back together again. I had hoped to get it apart, and clean the metal with electrolysis. I will probably remove the teeth altogether as has been suggested as its something like a 6 or 8 point at the moment, OK for chopping down trees but not for dovetails . I could use a linisher to remove the teeth rather than filing it. There used to be a local saw doctor who had a mecanical means of cutting teeth. I'll see if he is still around, otherwise its a few hours with a file and magnifying glass I suppose! It does have a very comfortable handle though! Thanks for the links.

Cheers
Richard

 

[Argus]

I have one or two of those old Groves… they are vaunted by a famous woodworker who is much admired on this site.

Groves went through a number of take-overs up to about the early 1920s, but I’d reckon that yours is late 19th C. Compared to my favourite saw from that era (an I. Sorby) the plate seems to me to be a bit thicker and they have a heft about them, but a great piece of kit. That was a top quality saw when it was new.

Old saws with split nuts invariably show signs of mangling on the slots where generations of users try to rectify a loose handle without the correct tool. This one is unique in that it has no obvious damage in this area.

However, one reason that the bolts don’t want to withdraw -in support of your observation that they bolts were loose – may be that during its working life the handle shrank, allowed some play which with the reciprocal action of continuous sawing over time, may have allowed the hard saw plate to bite into the soft brass bolt and produce its own little side-slot in the blind shank of the bolt at this point. The common quick- cure for this was to relieve the bolt, withdraw it slightly then rotate it 90 degrees to present an unworn bit of brass shank to the hole in the saw plate in the direction of the stroke, even so, in time, this wore if the handle worked loose again.

I’ve had this on numerous old saws that indicates this has happened. It very very, easy to damage the bolt during an attempt at removal because the wear slot in the side fouls the hole in the plate. However, as the bolts on the Grove are unique to the saw, it may be worth considering getting it apart if the loose-handle persists. The method is to gently mark each bolt with a pencil so that the same bolt is re-united with the same nut in the same hole, carefully ease each back through its hole without damaging the threads then to float over the damaged section of bolt on the blind shank with Silver-solder (you’ll need to cultivate a jeweller or someone who can Braze, for this!).
It sounds involved, but can be done and Silver Solder is generally physically harder metal than the brass it supports……………

At this point, if the handle is off, it allows you to restore the handle in isolation, inside and out and to soak the plate in your rust removal solution of choice. The final act is to re-joint the whole thing and re-cut the teeth without the handle getting in the way. I think that the teeth are beyond reasonable repair.

There’s lots on Y-T about re-cutting teeth, including films from said famous woodworker who has an interesting way of doing it……..
Good luck it is a very good saw, one of the best made in its day.

 

[richarddownunder]

Thanks Argus, very interesting, so that is how the nuts and medallions came out of the factory I thought they might have been ground a bit. The threaded medallions can be pushed very slighly through and then they bind, so I'm sure you are right about the alignment. I did try to rotate them thinking that might do the trick but I haven't managed to do that and fear mangling the thread if I get heavy handed. I can do it all up and the handle will have very little play, it was only slightly wobbly and that was because the nuts weren't done up that tight. I'll have another go at rotating the medallions, maybe pushing on them with a not-slip mat or something (I obviously don’t want to get pliers on them) but if I don't succeed, then I'll just try cleaning and re-toothing with the handle on...not what I'd prefer though. So, late 1800s then. I wonder how many hands it has been through in that time!

Cheers
Richard

 

[richarddownunder]

Gave up trying to remove the handle - but did make a little tool to nip up the split nuts tight and its pretty rock solid now. Following advice, have done a minimal once-over-lightly clean-up on it so as not to remove too much of it's history (plus I dont know how to get into those corners with autosol). It looks a little prettier but not much use untill I do the teeth. A job for a rainy day (which we are having plenty of but I have a lot of jobs for rainy days...). Considering it's age, the handle is in almost pristine nick so I'm quite pleased with it!

Cheers
Richard

 

[Argus]

Richard..... just spotted the 'down-under' part, so it's even more interesting to speculate how that saw got so far from Blighty. There can't be many of those in OZ.

It is looking better already. If the handle is tight and does not rock, I'd leave it as is and give the nuts a nip and tuck every once in a while to keep it that way.
The handle on those saws were Beech, so may I suggest that , after a hundred odd years, that it may benefit from a little nourishment. Linseed oil is preferred - allow it to soak in, especially the open ends where there's end grain - under the nuts and down the plate slot. A few regular drops here and there and a rub over for few months will bring that handle up beautifully. As the oil is absorbed it will serve to swell the fibres and keep the handle tight.

Hopefully the plate will sharpen up after a re-jointing and re-cut and you will have a saw that's fighting-fit for another 100 years.

All best from Wild Wales.

 

[deema]

Well, I have a slightly different view to most of the replies. A loose handle / any movement will make it almost impossible to cut accurately and needs to be solved. The brass back is too low at the toe and I suspect has either been dropped or excessively taped down to straighten the blade. It needs to be lifted up and the blade re-tensioned to work properly. Chancers are at the heel it’s also too low. Strip all those teeth off, and start again. It’s actually incredibly easy to do, you don’t under any circumstances need a Li is her, a file and half a dozen strokes will remove them. A full restoration takes about 1 hour including resharpening the saw. Not a lot of time for a lifetime of use.

The handle should be shaped and cut to fit perfectly to your hand. Every joiner or cabinet maker worth their salt would have done this. OK, you won’t get blisters from using it all day every day as it is, however a saw that fits perfectly in the hand is a joy. One that fits poorly gets used infrequently.

As already suggested rotate the saw nuts and also wiggle the handle, chances are they are slightly bent from the saw being dropped. One way or another you need to fix the movement unless the saw is destined for a display cabinet. I personally would use a pin punch to knock them out. If they break, what the heck, either replace with new saw nuts or use epoxy to fix the handle, it’s not as though the saw is some ancient relic and of considerable value. It will be a fantastic too, when properly sorted out.

 

[ED65]

That's a nice cleanup Richard. I too would prefer to get the saw apart to work on it but you've done a great job for it not having had the handle off.

 

[ED65]

Strip all those teeth off, and start again. It’s actually incredibly easy to do, you don’t under any circumstances need a Li is her, a file and half a dozen strokes will remove them.

With respect, aren't you exaggerating for effect? I'm not sure any but the finest-toothed saw could have its edge made dead flat in only 6-7 strokes with any of the common files used for jointing teeth, possibly even with uncommon files

Paul Sellers says here that it took him about 20 minutes with his file of choice.

 

[richarddownunder]

Richard..... just spotted the 'down-under' part, so it's even more interesting to speculate how that saw got so far from Blighty. There can't be many of those in OZ.

It is looking better already. If the handle is tight and does not rock, I'd leave it as is and give the nuts a nip and tuck every once in a while to keep it that way.
The handle on those saws were Beech, so may I suggest that , after a hundred odd years, that it may benefit from a little nourishment. Linseed oil is preferred - allow it to soak in, especially the open ends where there's end grain - under the nuts and down the plate slot. A few regular drops here and there and a rub over for few months will bring that handle up beautifully. As the oil is absorbed it will serve to swell the fibres and keep the handle tight.

Hopefully the plate will sharpen up after a re-jointing and re-cut and you will have a saw that's fighting-fit for another 100 years.

All best from Wild Wales.

Actually, small island of the coast of Oz (New Zealand).

 

[richarddownunder]

That's a nice cleanup Richard. I too would prefer to get the saw apart to work on it but you've done a great job for it not having had the handle off.

Thanks

 

[richarddownunder]

Well, I have a slightly different view to most of the replies. A loose handle / any movement will make it almost impossible to cut accurately and needs to be solved. The brass back is too low at the toe and I suspect has either been dropped or excessively taped down to straighten the blade. It needs to be lifted up and the blade re-tensioned to work properly. Chancers are at the heel it’s also too low. Strip all those teeth off, and start again. It’s actually incredibly easy to do, you don’t under any circumstances need a Li is her, a file and half a dozen strokes will remove them. A full restoration takes about 1 hour including resharpening the saw. Not a lot of time for a lifetime of use.

The handle should be shaped and cut to fit perfectly to your hand. Every joiner or cabinet maker worth their salt would have done this. OK, you won’t get blisters from using it all day every day as it is, however a saw that fits perfectly in the hand is a joy. One that fits poorly gets used infrequently.

As already suggested rotate the saw nuts and also wiggle the handle, chances are they are slightly bent from the saw being dropped. One way or another you need to fix the movement unless the saw is destined for a display cabinet. I personally would use a pin punch to knock them out. If they break, what the heck, either replace with new saw nuts or use epoxy to fix the handle, it’s not as though the saw is some ancient relic and of considerable value. It will be a fantastic too, when properly sorted out.

Hi Deema. Good point about the brass back not being square, I'll look into addressing that. The plate is pretty flat ATM though. The handle is very comfortable so I'm not intending to mess with that much. As for not being a relic, it may not be that valuable (although good examples seem to go for a not insignificant amount on e-bay) but, at well over 100 years old (maybe nearing 150) it is fairly ancient and so, out of respect to those craftsmen who made it in the first place, I don't want to damage it, but do want to get it working as well as I can. Nipping up the nuts has certainly helped the rigidity of the blade but I guess I wont know how well it works until it is sharpened. I think if I did butcher the nuts, getting replacements of any sort in keeping with the saw would be near impossible in this hemisphere!
Cheers
Richard

 

[richarddownunder]

You need to take an old screwdriver and file or grind away the centre to fit the nuts. On how to sharpen / restore here is a thread a wrote a while ago on how to do it

hand-saw-restoration-and-re-teething-of-a-99p-saw-t98494.html

Great link...thanks

 

[richarddownunder]

As someone who likes to finish things, I've followed the various advice on this thread, straightened the blade in the back, filed off the original teeth, if you can call them that (~5 minutes), re-toothed (15 tpi) as well as I can for a beginner, and set the new teeth. All up, a couple of hours of enjoyable filing/setting. The results aren't perfect. Needed better light and a better file ... and more practice. But it's certainly an improvement. A few 'cows and calves' ... but how does it cut? Nice and straight. Not quite up to the finish of my Pax 1776, but not that far behind. So I'm pretty pleased for $12NZ (about 6 quid). After a bit of use and when I get a new file, I'll have a go at improving the teeth. But they will do for now. Thanks for the advice everyone.

Cheers
Richard