Gouges - American Measurements to English Conversion?

[Chems]

I'm hoping to try my hand a bit of carving in the coming weeks. Apparently the gouges I need are:

7/20
5/20
3/20
8/10
7/10
Also, a v-tool. The size doesn't really matter, but you want one of the 60 degree ones, not the ones with a really wide flare.

This makes no sense to me as far as I can tell in comparison with all the gouges in the Axminster Catalogue. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[wizer]

i can't help with the size conversion, but recommend you take a look at Pfiel gauges as sold by Dick.biz. Very good tools and not wildly expensive

 

[bugbear]

Also, a v-tool. The size doesn't really matter, but you want one of the 60 degree ones, not the ones with a really wide flare.

This makes no sense to me as far as I can tell in comparison with all the gouges in the Axminster Catalogue. Any help would be greatly appreciated.[/quote]

http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php? ... 23#message

BugBear

 

[Argus]

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There are two basic ranges of straight (i.e. unbent) gouge sweeps and from those there are derivatives that are curved in various ways to assist access for difficult cuts.

The English pattern (often referred to as the Sheffield list) is one that was adopted by the English tool makers from the 19th C when the sweeps began to be standardised in shape and the Continental pattern which looks the same but has a slight difference in the numbering system. Basically in the English pattern, gouges are arcs of a circle ranging from a No: 3 to a No: 11, which is a semi circle. They are then graduated according to width.

A 1" No 11 is a 1" semi circle, while a 1" No 3 is an arc of a far larger circle. A table of comparative arc sizes is essential and makes it appear quite easy once you are accustomed to it.

The trick with carving is to select the sweep of the gouge that matches your cut exactly and to keep them all in razor condition so the finishing cut is straight from the tool and to use as few tools as possible - it's quite remarkable what can be achieved with just a few straight basic gouges.

(No 1 is a straight chisel, but bevelled on both sides. No 2 is a straight skew. The differences in sweeps are academic and you can find that out from a good book).

Vee gouges are tricky to sharpen, but you will benefit from a 60 and 45 degree vee to start.

Used tools in the UK will almost invariably be the Sheffield pattern and can be an excellent source of quality kit.

I would recommend a good book as a starter before you even consider buying tools, because it is far more economical to buy the tools as you need them and fettle them for use one at a time than to go in for extensive sets devised by a manufacturer that look good on the wall and mostly remain unused.

I'd recommend sticking with one pattern or the other. Mixing sweeps can be confusing.

I don't have a vested interest, but one of the best teachers around is Chris Pye.

Two excellent books on introductory basics are:
http://www.chrispye-woodcarving.com/wri ... 1vol1.html

http://www.chrispye-woodcarving.com/wri ... 1vol2.html


Volume 1 deals with tools and sharpening in some detail.

His main site is here with a lot of good stuff that can be downloaded free.
http://www.chrispye-woodcarving.com/

Worth a look - he's one of the top carvers around in my view.



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[Frank Drew]

Chems,

Most carving tools I've seen listed are noted in metric measurements and sweep (or degree of curvature.)

So, I assume the 7/20 is a 20mm straight shafted gouge (curved cutting tool) in a No. 7 sweep. And so on. As Argus notes, the sweeps range from No. 3 (very shallow) to No. 11 (almost U-shaped).

When the shaft of the tool itself is bent, the numbers change, but in an ordered fashion.

 

[Wiley Horne]

Hi Chems,

Here is a pretty useful discussion of gouges, from Tools for Working Wood:

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merc ... guide.html

Note in the discussion of sweeps, the difference between the English (Sheffield) and Continental systems, as discussed above by Argus. A Sheffield 6-sweep will be about exactly the same as a Continental 7-sweep. So if the difference matters to you, you may need to know whether the recommendations you are following are for English chisels (such as Henry Taylor or Ashley Iles) versus European makes like Two Cherries or Pfeil (Swiss Made).

Incidentally, there aren't any American conventions--we hark back to either the Sheffield or Continental systems.

Wiley....no financial or other interest in Tools for Working Wood

 

[Chris Knight]

See this thread for pics https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... 818#131818

 

[Argus]

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Wiley's right about the number difference.

In the continental system, the straight and skew chisels are both No:1 with the sweeps starting at No: 2. Therefore there is a one-digit number difference between the two systems.

Reading my post again, I see that I erroneously included No:s 10 & 11 as sweeps - they are in fact veiners, a u-shaped cut.
No: 9 is the semi-circle.

The continental system of numbers will obviously be metric, the Sheffield system uses imperial. If you are happy converting between the two then you can progress in size from a 1/2" to a 14mm back to a 5/8", but this does annoy some folk.

What is crucial is that good quality gouges should always be the arc of a circle - not a curved shape..


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[Chems]

Wow, you guys sure do deliver!

So If I'm reading you correctly it translates like this:


7/20 = No 7 20mm
5/20 = No 5 20mm
3/20 = No 3 20mm
8/10 = No 8 10mm
7/10 = No 7 10mm

My only problem now is the range of Gouges in the Axminster Catalogue doesn't have all the sizes, ie a No 7 20mm, has a No 7 22mm.


If I have the pattern I'm going to carve can I work out what gouges I'm going to need from it, seems like I could?

 

[Argus]

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The Axminster catalogue features Kirschen, who, being continental, use the continental system that we have described.

Further on in the catalogue you will find Henry Taylor, this is an old established British make and they follow the Sheffield pattern. Not to everyone’s taste as their tools come with a black finish straight from the casting and you have to put your own cutting edge on before you use them. In other words, they need to be fettled, but they are good kit, nonetheless. Kirschen usually have a nice shiny finish and are ground enough to use if you aren't fussy about the finish.

Taylor's imperial measure is in brackets.
A 19 or 20mm gouge would be equivalent to a 3/4". Tolerances in hand carving are seldom exact or important unless you are a pattern-maker.

Axminster offer a terrific mail order service - next day usually - at no cost if you are above their minimum delivery charge, but their offering of carving gear is a basic range. It’s perfectly adequate for new carvers, but there are other suppliers you may consider.

One thing to remember though is that generally if you buy cheap tools, you will have poor results. This is particularly true of carving chisels where the tool quality is reflected in the finish – after all, you don’t want to spend all your time sanding out ragged cuts.



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