Getting to grips with the rebate plane.

[Andy Kev.]

Good Morning All,

if there is one tool which I continue to have difficulty in mastering, it is my Veritas skew rebate plane.

The two key adjustments seem to be that the blade must be parallel to the mouth and that the side of the blade must project just a whisker towards the vertical wall of the rebate. (Incidentally, the latter seems counter-intuitive as surely a projecting blade would undermine the wall, creating an inward slope. This is obviously not the case but I can’t for the life of me see why and I would have thought that the blade should be bang on flush with the side of the plane.)

I don’t use the plane until I believe I have made the above adjustments although the results would indicate that that belief is misplaced. The actual use of the plane is not a problem and I can usually achieve a horizontal floor to the rebate, this seeming to be a matter of acquiring the necessary muscle memory in terms of pressure on the fence with one hand and forward thrust with the other. The problem is that the rebate wall often slopes away from the main body of wood towards the rebate. This is of course correctable with a shoulder plane.

I am slowly getting better with the rebate plane but the slowness is frustrating. Therefore my question is: do I just stick with it and practice a lot with scraps of wood or do any of you have some killer advice which will enable me to get this sorted once and for all?

Thanks in advance,

Andy.

 

[deema]

It sounds to me like the plane is not being held flat and I leaning towards the outside of the rebate. This often happens with the hand pushing the fence against the stuff also applying a little downward pressure.

 

[Jacob]

The usual way to use a steel rebate plane is to just use the fence to get the cut started and then take it off and follow the cut. Working to marks of course - the scriber (if there is one) is just to make the first mark and then you take it off.
If the wall of the cut isn't perfect you just turn it over and do a pass along the wall.
Stanley 78 my favourite plane! Dirt cheap 2nd hand. I doubt the Veritas does anything any better.
Woodies are even cheaper and highly effective.

 

[bugbear]

The usual way to use a steel rebate plane is to just use the fence to get the cut started and then take it off and follow the cut.

So for multiple rebates you have to keep taking the fence off, then putting it back on and resetting the rebate size for each cut?

Sounds over complicated :roll: , and I don't think this is usual - you're the first person I've heard mention it.

OTOH, Iron rebates are often kept, and used, fenceless all the time, just used as "plain" rebates, in the old parlance.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

The usual way to use a steel rebate plane is to just use the fence to get the cut started and then take it off and follow the cut.

So for multiple rebates you have to keep taking the fence off, then putting it back on and resetting the rebate size for each cut?

Sounds over complicated ...

Well it would be if that's how you do it. :lol:

If I was doing a lot I'd get them all started with a fence and then remove it (just once!) and finish them all.
The reason being the fence gets in the way once you have started the cut and is redundant.

OTOH you can use them without the fence altogether and just get a rebate started away from the line with your fingers as the fence and work it both ways (bottom first and then the side). This is probably the best way and a woody is probably the best plane to use.

What people probably get wrong is to assume that this expensive bit of kit with all those add-ons like fences, depth guides, scribers, skews etc, will cut a precise rebate as per set-up, like a machine. But in fact you have to work to marking gauge lines, (or use the scribe as a marking gauge and retract immediately).

 

[Andy Kev.]

The usual way to use a steel rebate plane is to just use the fence to get the cut started and then take it off and follow the cut. Working to marks of course - the scriber (if there is one) is just to make the first mark and then you take it off.
If the wall of the cut isn't perfect you just turn it over and do a pass along the wall.
Stanley 78 my favourite plane! Dirt cheap 2nd hand. I doubt the Veritas does anything any better.
Woodies are even cheaper and highly effective.

That would never have occurred to me but when I think of the notion of using a shoulder plane up against a clamped on wooden fence (said fence being removable once the rebate has got going), I can see the sense in it. The potential problem seems to be that if you kick the rebate off with an error, then that error would surely continue, wouldn't it?

 

[Jacob]

...... The potential problem seems to be that if you kick the rebate off with an error, then that error would surely continue, wouldn't it?

Either you get it right to start with, or (e.g. if using a woody freehand as described above) you undercut and only work back to the marks finishing at the very end. The marks are the important thing!

 

[Andy Kev.]

...... The potential problem seems to be that if you kick the rebate off with an error, then that error would surely continue, wouldn't it?

Either you get it right to start with, or (e.g. if using a woody freehand as described above) you undercut and only work back to the marks finishing at the very end. The marks are the important thing!

I'm very careful when marking. The marking gauge and marking knife must be amongst to the most important tools.

Incidentally, I wouldn't be so sceptical about the Veritas skew rebate as it really is a good bit of kit. The fault lies with my (lack of) ability.

 

[Jacob]

...... The potential problem seems to be that if you kick the rebate off with an error, then that error would surely continue, wouldn't it?

Either you get it right to start with, or (e.g. if using a woody freehand as described above) you undercut and only work back to the marks finishing at the very end. The marks are the important thing!

I'm very careful when marking. The marking gauge and marking knife must be amongst to the most important tools.

I'd be cautious with the knife. It's a bit of a misnomer - they aren't for marking they are for cutting the occasional mark which needs cutting e.g. a DT shoulder line. Everything else a pencil, gauge or scribe pin is better and easier

Incidentally, I wouldn't be so sceptical about the Veritas skew rebate as it really is a good bit of kit. The fault lies with my (lack of) ability.

Scepticism saves me £160 on this one! My Stanley 78 was about £15. Woodies are two a penny.

 

[bugbear]

The usual way to use a steel rebate plane is to just use the fence to get the cut started and then take it off and follow the cut.

So for multiple rebates you have to keep taking the fence off, then putting it back on and resetting the rebate size for each cut?

Sounds over complicated ...

Well it would be if that's how you do it. :lol:

If I was doing a lot I'd get them all started with a fence and then remove it (just once!) and finish them all.
The reason being the fence gets in the way once you have started the cut and is redundant.

Ah - so you clamp and unclamp each workpiece twice. Much better. :roll:

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

......
So for multiple rebates you have to keep taking the fence off, then putting it back on and resetting the rebate size for each cut?

Sounds over complicated ...

Well it would be if that's how you do it. :lol:

If I was doing a lot I'd get them all started with a fence and then remove it (just once!) and finish them all.
The reason being the fence gets in the way once you have started the cut and is redundant.

Ah - so you clamp and unclamp each workpiece twice. Much better. :roll:

BugBear

Yes. Much easier than your way.
With a sensible Record vice it's just a quick flick of the wrist.
Or better still (if the design permits it) is to rest the workpiece against stops and not clamp it at all

 

[deema]

I have the Record 708 which was very inexpensive, but an excellent plane.

The technique I use is to keep the fence in place throughout. As Jacob has indicated, the fence sets the width of the rebate and you need to push against the fence for the first couple of stokes to get it started. With the blade slightly protruding out of the side of the plane, it's very easy for the plane to start undercutting and cause the plane to tip over. The fence I find help to stop the rebate becoming too wide / undercutting. After a few passes pushing against the fence the rebate is started and I then ignore the fence and concentrate totally on keeping the plane horizontal. A hand rests in the toe area and one on the handle. You will see some makes of this kind of plane with a handle attached to the front location of the blade which makes a good resting point, otherwise there is not much to rest the hand on to guide the plane. If you can keep the plane level, the depth stop will work correctly and you will be left with a good rebate. The wall of the rebate will have striations as a consequence of the planning action, so if it's on show, or a glue surface either use the rebate plane or a shoulder plane to clean it up at the end.

 

[Jacob]

.... The wall of the rebate will have striations as a consequence of the planning action, so if it's on show, or a glue surface either use the rebate plane or a shoulder plane to clean it up at the end.

I'd deliberately undercut and then clean the wall with one pass or so - as you would with a woody.
Tool makers add things like fences and depth guides to tools which have been widely and successfully used without anybody feeling the need. You don't have to use them and often they aren't any use at all.
In fact if you were under pressure in the old fashioned way you'd probably fiddle with the add-ons for a bit and then discard them to speed things up.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Might be worth checking that the side of the blade has a very slight clearance to the rebate sidewall, especially down near the cutting edge. The side of the blade doesn't need to be sharp, but it does need to be free of any tiny lumps, bumps or burrs that stop the very corner of the blade getting into the very corner of the rebate, if you see what I mean.

I've come to the reluctant conclusion that rebate planes are nearer to being roughing-out tools than fine finishing tools. Quite often, I find that I have to clean up rebates with a finer tool (shoulder plane, usually), especially when I want a 'nice' fit or finished appearance. Sometimes, it's not that critical, of course; provided the surfaces are 'clean', a 1/32" either way makes no odds, so cleaning up the sidewall with a rebate-plane-on-its-side pass or two is fine.

 

[bugbear]

Tool makers add things like fences and depth guides to tools which have been widely and successfully used without anybody feeling the need.

"Interesting" ; how long (in your theory) did the fools at Stanley sell their basic #78 before adding the pointless depth stop and fence seen on current over elaborate versions?

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Tool makers add things like fences and depth guides to tools which have been widely and successfully used without anybody feeling the need.

"Interesting" ; how long (in your theory) did the fools at Stanley sell their basic #78 before adding the pointless depth stop and fence seen on current over elaborate versions?

BugBear

You've missed the point (as usual). Many 78 users didn't bother with the bits n bobs and well-used old ones are often only available without them, presumably long gone.
You realise how (semi) redundant they are if you ever try to do a few rebates with a plain and simple woody - which is a highly effective and productive tool.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Three short (three minute) videos from Shannon Rogers (the Renaissance Woodworker) that may be of help to some;

http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/3- ... et-planes/

 

[Jacob]

There you go! You don't get those probs with a plain woody.
http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/we ... in-fences/
What the Veritas and the trad filister have in common is that they are both expensive luxury tools aimed at the occasional woodworker (antique restorer?) or gent amateur. They look such a good idea :roll:
Production work would be done with the plain woody, almost but not always skewed, because it's faster and simpler to work to marked lines (and the planes are a bloody sight cheaper :lol: ).

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Ha! I'll see your fenceless rebate plane and raise you a hammer and chisel! (Oh, yes!) -

http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/han ... ach-video/

 

[Jacob]

Ha! I'll see your fenceless rebate plane and raise you a hammer and chisel! (Oh, yes!) -

http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/han ... ach-video/

Thats' odd he doesn't seem to know anything about the ordinary woody, which was the plane of choice for most - judging by the vast numbers of them available 2nd hand for next to nowt, and knowing how easy they are to use.
As I said - the fillister plane or the Veritas et al look such good ideas, but when push come to shove they won't cut the mustard!
He's partly right about ignoring the nicker but it can be used as a built-in marking gauge - to be retracted after marking but always set spot on. just in case