First post!

[Nicky T]

Hello everyone!
This is my first post- please be gentle.
I've been working with wood for several years now, mainly producing windows and doors from my workshop in Bedfordshire using big planers, tenoners, spindle moulders, belt sanders etc and I can honestly say I'm very happy for it.
Just recently I've developed a bit of an itch, it started shortly after I read a book by a James Krenov and was amazed by what he could do using mainly hand tools- long story short, I want to do what he did, or at least learn enough to give myself half a chance. The first thing I have learnt is that there is a huge difference between the joinery I'm used to producing and fine cabinet making.
I'm struggling to meet the two if that makes sense, any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[gregmcateer]

Hi Nicky T,

Welcome to the forum.

I know absolutely bo diddly squat about either, but you sure will find lots of help on this 'ere site - just keep asking the questions - THe clever chaps will be along soon.

Greg

 

[MrYorke]

And there was me expecting to see a, urm, post.

Sorry, had to get that in.

Welcome and hope some of the guys n gals can help you out.

 

[Peter Sefton]

Welcome to the forum, Krenov did some excellent work one of my students made two of his cabinets this year.
Furniture making is different to joinery, my advice would be accuracy, very sharp tools and patience the first two you can be taught the third is a bit more tricky
Cheers Peter

 

[Nicky T]

I don't find sharpening too bad, it's the flattening of water stones I find a little tedious. Accuracy I'm slowly improving but patience (like you said) is what I'm struggling with- I'm so used to racing the clock when it comes to windows and doors.

 

[Jacob]

I don't find sharpening too bad, it's the flattening of water stones I find a little tedious. ......

Try freehand with oil stones. Much easier and quicker, no flattening ever needed.
Difficult sharpening methods are very fashionable - a lot of people think they are normal, but they aren't (or weren't!)

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Hi there. Welcome also.

+1 for Peter Sefton's advice. When I set up my home workshop, the first sign I hung up was "good joint = accuracy + patience"

I would add that one way I've found to remove the stress from the patience side of the equation is to make a prototype before you attempt new and complex joints. By practicing in this way I've found I make most of the mistakes on a couple of off cuts before I ruin the project. It "ups" the quality on the actual job and saves your expensive exotic hardwoods. The cost is time of course. But since you're not on the clock then I think its important to recognise that. The whole "taking your time" and doing a refined job is where the fun is for me. That getting totally absorbed by a tricky operation and really getting in close contact with the grain of the wood, the smell etc is why I do it I think.

So, I would coach you to not set any time related goals for your first few projects. They'll be finished...when the quality is right. Make the goal better rather than faster at the start.

I worked on many pieces of furniture a few years ago with an ex carpenter buddy. He just couldn't slow down. It was like a macho pride thing that site work had drummed into him. That's an attitude that didn't best serve the more complex joinery.

When you get stuck...and you will....just post here (with pics) and you'll be connected to a staggering knowledge base of experience and talent that will blow your mind.

 

[mind_the_goat]

"good joint = accuracy + patience"

You might also find this sign outside a Dutch coffee shop

 

[Nicky T]

Thanks for all the advice- this forum is everything i was hoping it would be!
With regards to the sharpening I'm already set up with water stones. Finding the quickest, accurate method of flattening them is what I'm looking for.

 

[Racers]

Thanks for all the advice- this forum is everything i was hoping it would be!
With regards to the sharpening I'm already set up with water stones. Finding the quickest, accurate method of flattening them is what I'm looking for.

No no no Jacob has already solved all your problems :wink:

I use wet and dry stuck with water to a thick piece of perspex.

Pete

 

[paulm]

Some dry wall mesh on a flat surface is very good for flattening waterstones too, and doesn't clog as much/quickly as abrasive papers.

Cheers, Paul

 

[Phil Pascoe]

If you use the sides of the stone for chisels, and make sure you use the ends of the stone as well as the middle, they don't need flattening that often. Two minutes on a concrete coping stone on the garden wall works well and costs nothing.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

"good joint = accuracy + patience"

You might also find this sign outside a Dutch coffee shop

Now that reminds me of a trip to Amsterdam many years ago..........

 

[Jacob]

Thanks for all the advice- this forum is everything i was hoping it would be!
With regards to the sharpening I'm already set up with water stones. Finding the quickest, accurate method of flattening them is what I'm looking for.

No no no Jacob has already solved all your problems :wink:

I use wet and dry stuck with water to a thick piece of perspex.

Pete

Solved that problem at least:
1 Don't have to flatten stones
2 Don't have to buy wet n dry
3 Don't need perspex sheet
4 Saves lots of time and expense

 

[yetloh]

Thanks for all the advice- this forum is everything i was hoping it would be!
With regards to the sharpening I'm already set up with water stones. Finding the quickest, accurate method of flattening them is what I'm looking for.

I've been using a coarse DMT diamond stone for this for years. Quick, simple and accurate.

Jim

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

A couple of points.

Be careful that you don't get hung up on the notion that Krenov did all the work using hand tools alone. He did use planers, thicknesses, bandsaws, table saws and he did have a very small Itallian made spindle moulder, which he converted to take router bits as he didn't like routers. Obviously a router table would substitute that. He did, however try to get all the finished surfaces straight from a hand tool, be it a plane, a knife, spokeshave, chisel etc. Also he used wood in a very sensitive way. You could not reproduce one of his cabinets with just any timber. Even the most expensive and beautiful wood would not make a Krenovian cabinet ( it doesnt need be expensive, most wood Krenov used was ordinary) if it were just used with normal joinery paradigms which maximise yield and efficiency. This is the hardest thing to understand about his work. The wood was very specifically chosen for its character. This will make Jacob here laugh out loud, but this is important. A cabinet can be made from a plank and look uneasy or jarring and yet the same plank could make the same cabinet and turn out calm and harmonious. The wood is the thing, the accuracy is always there, and in fact is a minimum accepted requirement for any fine furniture work. Krenov knew how to use wood better than most, because the wood was the furniture's voice. He did not do wild and whacky things with the timber, which is another thing altogether, and let that be the statement of the furniture and the maker, it was always the wood.

Use your waterstones for sharpening. Krenov's used oilstones and freehand (though he did use a dry grinder to make the primary bevel and stones to hone secondary) but he did sharpen too a very fine degree. Oilstones required to sharpen to the fine degree he did would not be inexpensive and fuss free, so don't be fooled about easy shortcuts, although no sharpening methods are exactly difficult. Waterstones are about the most economical route to very sharp these days, which is why most furniture makers use them these days. Flattening should only take seconds, just get into the habit of flattening them on each other just before they are used and they won't get so far out, that the occasional flattening on wet and dry, or whatever, never takes long. Look at it from this angle, something that is easy to flatten will more likely be flat, because you will actually do it.

Mike.

 

[Racers]

+1

Cracking post Mike.

Pete

 

[Jacob]

....... The wood was very specifically chosen for its character. This will make Jacob here laugh out loud, but this is important. .....

Why do you say that? The idea of choosing wood by it's appearance, on a decorative object, is hardly original and has been done by makers from the year dot. Ditto book matching, which some of his fans think was Jimbo's own original idea lol ...

Krenov's used oilstones and freehand (though he did use a dry grinder to make the primary bevel and stones to hone secondary) but he did sharpen too a very fine degree.

What? Nobody told me that!!! :shock: So he wasn't entirely a mad old buguger then? :lol:

Oilstones required to sharpen to the fine degree he did would not be inexpensive and fuss free, so don't be fooled about easy shortcuts,

One easy shortcut with hard Arkansas stones (not that expensive if you look around) is to use a blade holder i.e. a length of 2x3" or whatever with a saw kerf in it to locate the blade. The advantage of this is that you can put a lot of weight on it and do the job faster

........Waterstones are about the most economical route to very sharp these days,

except for the price and the fact that they wear out fast (all that flattening doesn't help :roll: ).

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

I'm not going to start a sharpening debate but the OP has waterstones and they are excellent; he should use them and enjoy the results they will help him acheive. A 6000 grit waterstone costs about 30 quid sharpens much faster than a hard Arkansas without having to whale on it and attains a finer edge. Perpetuating the myth that. Waterstones are expensive is wearing thin now.

There is more to Krenov's use of wood than merely decoration. Wallpaper thin veneer is decoration and cannot yield the same results. Krenov did surprisingly little book matching and abandoned it completely in the latter half of his career. This is what I mean by 'difficult to understand'. He is not the only woodworker who does this, he would not claim to have invented anything, but just having wood with stunning grain and colour is not the same thing. That is like a very beautiful woman with far too much make up on.

Oh I nearly forgot before, he also used a horizontal drill machine set up to make slot mortices which he preferred over other mechanical means of doing the same. Of course he sawed them too.

Mike.

 

[Nicky T]

Thanks Mike, a lot of useful information there, ill be putting it into practice very soon. Much appreciated.