Electric vehicles

[Bodgers]

I still maintain that we are placing far too much reliance on technology. Just look at the Boeing 737 Max.

Yes, one of many aircraft. So you wouldn't fly on any aircraft because of the 737?

Worth pointing out that not only software system faults can cause fatal results.

Plenty of mechanical design and wear issues do too.

 

[Bodgers]

[
Not at all. I'm thinking that when it all goes pear-shaped and, for example, you can't get a mobile signal and are there running around completely lost like headless chickens, I'll simply get out my paper map and away I go. This Gadarene push to place more and more reliance on tech will be humanities undoing.
:

So just because there is a manual alternative you'll always choose the non technology based one?

So why use a car at all? Just walk.

 

[RogerS]

[
Not at all. I'm thinking that when it all goes pear-shaped and, for example, you can't get a mobile signal and are there running around completely lost like headless chickens, I'll simply get out my paper map and away I go. This Gadarene push to place more and more reliance on tech will be humanities undoing.
:

So just because there is a manual alternative you'll always choose the non technology based one?

So why use a car at all? Just walk.

That's facile. I'll make a carefully balanced judgement. Not simply accept tech for tech's sake.

 

[Geoff_S]

Wow, the end of humanity now.

 

[RogerS]

I still maintain that we are placing far too much reliance on technology. Just look at the Boeing 737 Max.

Yes, one of many aircraft. So you wouldn't fly on any aircraft because of the 737?

Worth pointing out that not only software system faults can cause fatal results.

Plenty of mechanical design and wear issues do too.

Again you're being deliberately obtuse. Of course, I'm not going to sop flying. You've missed my point completely but no bother.

 

[RogerS]

also for those concerned about how long it takes to charge look at it this way. On average how many times to you go to a fuel station and put fuel in. Now think about how long it takes to leave your house, drive to the fuel station, fill up and drive back to the house.

Bit of a straw man there. I cannot remember the last time I made a specific trip out to get fuel. It is always combined with something else, almost always the weekly shopping which I have to do anyway, so a few minutes extra is no bother.

That is the whole point, as aBEV driver unless you are on a very long journey you never have to do a specific refueling journey because as part of the parking procedure you adopt (just like folding wing mirrors if you need to) you automatically plug it in and just go do something else.....

But that's not what you originally said which was that ICE drivers jumped in their cars at home, drove to the garage, filled up and then drove back home. Which both Rorschach and I said was nonsense. 99.999% of ICE drivers will fill up during a journey.

And I wonder just how many selfish EV drivers there are who will plug their car in to charge at the supermarket and leave it there...while they did the shopping..even if it's fast charger and can do it in say 10 minutes or whatever. Thus blocking other EV users from also charging up.

 

[AJB Temple]

The blocking thing does not happen. This is because the system will identify when the car is charged and you get a running notification on your app. If you leave the car on the charger longer than this, a surcharge can be issued (basically a fine for blocking the charger). Hence it is easily controlled.

More of an issue in my experience is that occasionally people with non-electric vehicles park in the charger spot.

All of this kind of obvious stuff was sorted out years ago.

 

[Bodgers]

I still maintain that we are placing far too much reliance on technology. Just look at the Boeing 737 Max.

Yes, one of many aircraft. So you wouldn't fly on any aircraft because of the 737?

Worth pointing out that not only software system faults can cause fatal results.

Plenty of mechanical design and wear issues do too.

Again you're being deliberately obtuse. Of course, I'm not going to sop flying. You've missed my point completely but no bother.

I don't think I am.

Your point is that people (in their apparent stupidity) have an over reliance on technology, with you being in a superior position with your paper maps etc.

But where do you draw the line?

MRI machines? Are they a step too far? Over relying on technology when a good old fashioned physical can do the job?

Lots of things that you take for granted today are reliant on software. Can't escape it.

 

[Geoff_S]

The blocking thing does not happen. This is because the system will identify when the car is charged and you get a running notification on your app. If you leave the car on the charger longer than this, a surcharge can be issued (basically a fine for blocking the charger). Hence it is easily controlled.

More of an issue in my experience is that occasionally people with non-electric vehicles park in the charger spot.

All of this kind of obvious stuff was sorted out years ago.

But then you get the BEV vs PHEV division. PHEVs shouldn’t use public chargers because BEVs need them more argument.

It’s exhausting

 

[AJB Temple]

Not really, the various flavours of hybrids are a side show really - a sop to the eco brigade and toe dippers. Their typical electric range is circa 20 miles, which makes them largely pointless (maybe a bit of pollution reduction in town, but if you mainly drive in town then a small electric would be better). Most hybrids can't access the high capacity chargers anyway. There will always be people for an against. But I think the advancement of this technology and solving the inherent problems is worthwhile. Most EV criticisms in the press and elsewhere seem to come from people who have little experience of using them. That will gradually change as their market share increases.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

As far as charging and places to do it, any minute now the options will be much increased. It looks like they have cracked the technical (and, more importantly, political - with a small p) challenges around wireless car charging.

https://witricity.com/

Now that technical standards have been nailed down, we can expect big manufacturers like BMW to offer this technology very soon.

Vehicles topping up at traffic lights, taxis topping up at taxi ranks, buses at bus stops what next?

There are a lot of very clever people - and a tsunami of cash - working hard to make EVs the norm.

Interesting times...

 

[nev]

Now before anyone says "There's never enough charge points". That is total boollax it may happen occasionally but then is the pump free at every fuel station every time you go or have you ever had to wait.

.....

AT the moment you can lease an MG with a 160 mile 44KWh battery for £250. Are any of you going to honestly argue that that car would not meet the needs of the majority of the users of this forum taking the full costs of running a car for a year and the types of journeys most will do?

First I'll say I am not against electric cars or any other alternative, and for my own personal use , the mileage I do at the moment, an electric car as they are today would indeed be perfectly adequate, and if it weren't for cost my next car may indeed be electric.
I found your initial post in this thread interesting and informative but with comments like those above we seem to be drifting into argument for arguments sake (sorry)

If there's a queue at the petrol station its a few minutes per car wait not 30 minutes per car, that's just common sense.

Are any of the manufacturers providing a quick swap method? where one can unplug and withdraw a 'cell' and swap them from a bank of charged ones at the shop to cover a short range of say 10 -20 miles to get one home? That would seem to be a sensible option.

According to a quick google there were 38million vehicles on the road in the UK in 2019.
From that figure I will take a punt that at least a few million of those are owned by the not so well off. Those that can, at the moment, buy a car for a few hundred quid, pay for the road tax and insurance monthly and put fuel in as and when needed. It can sit on the roadside unused for weeks at a time if need be. Yes petrol is more expensive than electric but if I do 50 miles a month , once a week to the supermarket or visiting aunt Ethel* up the road, they can 'pay as you go' and not have go into debt they cannot afford (even if it was offered to them in the first place) for a lease or purchase of a new vehicle.
Leasing or buying an EV is not an option for literally millions of people and never will be.

 

[AJB Temple]

Slot in batteries make no sense Nev. If all you need is 20 miles top up, then that is literally 4 or 5 minutes on a super fast charger.

 

[Bodgers]

Only Renault were doing the battery lease, with an option to replace a battery if things went bad. It wasn't a 'hot' swap.


These packs are massive and weigh a lot. There were companies doing some sort of swap tech, but it has never taken off.

There's little point if the battery can be effectively managed with built in heating and cooling, capacity redundancy, to give average life spans of well over 10 years.

 

[MikeK]

The blocking thing does not happen. This is because the system will identify when the car is charged and you get a running notification on your app. If you leave the car on the charger longer than this, a surcharge can be issued (basically a fine for blocking the charger). Hence it is easily controlled.

More of an issue in my experience is that occasionally people with non-electric vehicles park in the charger spot.

All of this kind of obvious stuff was sorted out years ago.

I can't speak for the UK, but in Germany the "blocking thing" by EV and ICE vehicles does indeed happen. To help distinguish EV from ICE or hybrid vehicles, the license plate ends in "E". For example, my ICE truck would be GG ME 950. If my truck was a pure EV, the license plate would be GG ME 950E. This makes it real easy to identify who should or should not be in an EV charging point.

In my small town, there are three EV charging points, and all are in public parking lots. One lot has a local government charging point that cannot used by the public, and another lot has two charging points that are first come, first serve. None of the stores or the five petrol stations have EV charging points, yet. One store, a Rewe (similar to Tesco), was built last year. During the design phase of the large parking lot, no infrastructure was installed for EV charging.

When an ICE vehicle parks in any of the EV charging spots, the vehicle is usually towed within minutes. When an EV remains in the charging spot for hours, nothing obvious happens. I don't know if the EV owner is notified, warned, fined, or ignored, but I have noticed the same two BMW sedans parked in the only two public charging points for hours each day. I have no way (or interest) in telling how many frustrated EV drivers have driven by these charging points and unable to plug in.

 

[RogerS]

OK...so if I wanted to buy an EV, which ones are 4 x 4...I'm having difficulty finding any. Or are SUV's by default always 4 x 4 ?

Size-wise the Leaf is fine...definitely not smaller as SWMBO is uncomfortable driving anything smaller down the M6 !
Some good points are being made here - both for and against but I seriously think that for this household, we're very much like Nev.

 

[Bodgers]

OK...so if I wanted to buy an EV, which ones are 4 x 4...I'm having difficulty finding any. Or are SUV's by default always 4 x 4 ?

Size-wise the Leaf is fine...definitely not smaller as SWMBO is uncomfortable driving anything smaller down the M6 !
Some good points are being made here - both for and against but I seriously think that for this household, we're very much like Nev.

Dual motor Teslas are 4WD I believe.

Audi e-Tron and Jaguar iPace are also.

You don't need all the drivetrain elements that you do in an ICE car for 4WD - typically an electric motor is fitted on each axle, which cuts down on complexity.

Cheaper ones will come along eventually.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

...early adopter Vs luddite. ....

That's a very pejorative comparison. You're implying that being an early adopter is 'a good thing' and that not doing so makes one a luddite. That's not necessarily the case.

That was one of my notorious "exagereration for effect" statements - it's on the list of logical fallacies, for those who can't actually argue a point, and so prefer to claim it's on the list and therefore can be safely ignored.

I agree that it is absolutely not black and white, but there are some born-again greenies (and Tesla investors) who think everything electric is wonderful, and conversely there are others that think all this newfangled cars-driving-themselves nonsense can only end in tears. There is almost certainly a huge wodge of people in the middle who think it all mildly interesting, but have to walk the dog, do the shopping, and pick up the kids from school, and haven't got the time or inclination to contemplate all of this.

Apologies to anyone who was upset by my binary options. Or my logical fallacy, if you prefer.

 

[Geoff_S]

...early adopter Vs luddite. ....

That's a very pejorative comparison. You're implying that being an early adopter is 'a good thing' and that not doing so makes one a luddite. That's not necessarily the case.

That was one of my notorious "exagereration for effect" statements - it's on the list of logical fallacies, for those who can't actually argue a point, and so prefer to claim it's on the list and therefore can be safely ignored.

I agree that it is absolutely not black and white, but there are some born-again greenies (and Tesla investors) who think everything electric is wonderful, and conversely there are others that think all this newfangled cars-driving-themselves nonsense can only end in tears. There is almost certainly a huge wodge of people in the middle who think it all mildly interesting, but have to walk the dog, do the shopping, and pick up the kids from school, and haven't got the time or inclination to contemplate all of this.

Apologies to anyone who was upset by my binary options. Or my logical fallacy, if you prefer.

I had to Google "logical fallacy"

 

[AJB Temple]

Some excellent points. That has not been my experience in Germany. (There is a but coming). Our place there is near Cologne and we had no issue charging, though we eventually installed our own Tesla point similar to the UK.

I have to say I would definitely not buy an EV unless I was satisfied the manufacturer had truly sorted the charging network. The main reason by my friend / business partner and I bought Tesla was because they have dedicated charging stations, Tesla only, that happen to be convenient for us. So I have practically zero experience of other charging networks. My friend does a lot of short journeys in London, and she does occasionally use the supermarket chargers and car park chargers. They are really slow compared with the dedicated Tesla ones, so I think she should charge up at home each night and keep telling her that!

The system in our cars tells you how much juice you need to get to your destination and back again, and estimates the percentage remaining. If it needs juice to get you there or home, with adequate reserves, it will navigate you via Tesla charging points (and possibly others now as they improve the software - not really explored that). It will also warn you to adjust your speed etc if it thinks you are plundering the reserve (which heavy acceleration really does) and you can switch to emergency "get me home" mode, which ekes out the battery to the max. I think the range anxiety thing is over egged frankly - you just need a different attitude to journey planning.

On the 4WD question, I think (not sure) the Model X has an electric motor on each corner. It has ludicrous levels of acceleration (4 secs 0-60 or something) but you need to tow a power station in order to use it for long.