Drawer Advice

[custard]

I'm building a loose copy of the Shaker Harvard Side Table, you can see another version of it here,

http://www.shakerworkshops.com/catalog/ ... Table/F333

The project originated when Toby (of this parish) saw it in John Shea's book of measured Shaker drawings, as he also wanted some practise in copy routing I thought if I made the router copy template I might be able to get the build time down and sell a few of them. The design was amended slightly as the original was very short, and would have looked almost comical in a modern room. But increasing the height would expose some of the design weaknesses of the original, namely propensity for racking and the vulnerability of the short grain in the "cow horn" feet. So the leg thickness was increased and the central cross bar was made thicker and deeper.

The router template was made,

And we each have been making our own version in English Cherry,

I've now had an order for one in Curly American Cherry. So I've got this one to sort out some design issues before making another. And here's the snag. The drawer measures about 550mm wide, but is only 200mm deep! If I make it as the original (hung from a pair of oak runners), it's inevitable that it will keep getting pulled out and the contents tipped on the floor. Given that I've already told the client it's an inherently unstable and delicate design and will need to be treated carefully, an "April Fool" drawer design might be the straw that breaks the camel's back in respect of future orders!

Has anyone any suggestions on how to keep such a shallow drawer in place whilst still retaining at least some useful depth to the drawer? I suppose the ideal would be to extend the drawer sides into arms that pass through notches in the centre rail (like the arms on an extending leaf table), but I'd hate to thicken up the drawer sides in order to do that.

 

[gregmcateer]

Custard,

Sorry to get your hopes up.

I've absolutely no idea, but was heartbroken to see your little thread looking so lonely with no replies. So this is just morale support for your support :lol:

Hope someone useful comes along soon.

Greg

 

[xy mosian]

Perhaps a notch in each drawer side to take the end of a pin-hinged tongue as the drawer is being pulled out? The tongue would move out of the way as the drawer is pushed home, and could be manually lifted to suitably drop the drawer on the floor.
Actually you wouldn't need that, organise the notches in the drawer sides to engage on a stop as the front of the drawer drops.
Maybe the loose tongue would be more reliable. Fix the two together for weight.

xy

 

[Steve Maskery]

I agree that it is an inherently daft design.
But the customer is always right, eh?

What if you made it with two drawers instead of just the one?It would still be quite shallow, but the racking would be considerably less and overall it would look just as good.

Just a thought.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Lower the top rail to a position below the drawer, and reduce its width (depth). Make the drawer the full width of the table, presumably something close to 400 mm, and mounted on runners fixed to the table top. Make the drawer back a false front, or allow the drawer to open both ways with a positive stop (spring catch and recessed detent type arrangement in the drawer sides for example) for a positive central 'closed' position. There are still some technical challenges I haven't resolved, it's late and I've not really got my thinking hat on just now, but that might give you the germ of an idea. Slainte.

 

[dzj]

Was the drawer a part of the original design, or was it an add on from later times?
Perhaps the modus operandi was to take it out completely when needed.

Nothing comes to mind regarding runners and such. Any idea I have would compromise the initial design of the piece.

Not much use, was I?...

 

[Sgian Dubh]

... here's the snag. The drawer measures about 550mm wide, but is only 200mm deep! If I make it as the original (hung from a pair of oak runners), it's inevitable that it will keep getting pulled out and the contents tipped on the floor.

I didn't think last night to look at the link to the table you're basing yours on, and I see their construction is essentially the same as I suggested. I can't see a reason to not do something similar, because I'm assuming the challenges you're looking at is the shallowness of the drawer caused by the deep middle rail (racking and short travel).

So coupled with dropping the rail as in the original and as I suggested, or perhaps even sticking with a very shallow drawer (front to back), to prevent the drawer pulling right out you could add a spring catch which engages with the inside face of the drawer back when the drawer is as extended as far as you wish it to go, something like in the wee sketch below. Naturally, if the drawer spans pretty much the full width of the table top, this means there has to be a front and a back to the table because the drawer only opens one way, but that might just mean something fairly straightforward such as using lap dovetails for the drawer back instead of through dovetails. Slainte.

 

[custard]

What if you made it with two drawers instead of just the one?It would still be quite shallow, but the racking would be considerably less and overall it would look just as good.

Just a thought.

It's a good thought, there are other Shaker work tables that go exactly that route. However, i'm trying to hang on to as much authenticity as possible, so barmy as it is, I think I'll stick to one ludicrously wide drawer!

Thanks.

 

[custard]

So coupled with dropping the rail as in the original and as I suggested, or perhaps even sticking with a very shallow drawer (front to back), to prevent the drawer pulling right out you could add a spring catch which engages with the inside face of the drawer back when the drawer is as extended as far as you wish it to go, something like in the wee sketch below. Naturally, if the drawer spans pretty much the full width of the table top, this means there has to be a front and a back to the table because the drawer only opens one way, but that might just mean something fairly straightforward such as using lap dovetails for the drawer back instead of through dovetails. Slainte.

Thanks for that.

I've thought it over some more and agree that it needs drawer stops fixed to the underside of the table top. I think I'm actually going to go with the "turnbuckle" design of drawer stops that pass through a notch in the drawer back and then rotate 90 degrees to stop the drawer coming out. It's a slightly more compact design front to back and probably a fraction quicker to install.

I don't know where the Shaker reputation as design geniuses comes from, certainly not this piece! However, i'm loathed to let the design go as it's got some real commercial potential. I'm getting quite a bit of interest at £450 in Clear Cherry and £550 in Curly Cherry. The build time is definitely 20 hours or less including a Danish Oil finish, which will make a pleasant change from my usual business practise of quoting assuming 100 hours and ending up taking 200 hours. Ho hum!

 

[Sgian Dubh]

The build time is definitely 20 hours or less including a Danish Oil finish, which will make a pleasant change from my usual business practise of quoting assuming 100 hours and ending up taking 200 hours. Ho hum!

I assume the twenty hour build time is because you've pretty much worked out jigs, formers and other production aids for a batch production type process? I strongly suspect a one-off example, starting from scratch, would take significantly longer, even if you were using CNC technology. Slainte.

 

[custard]

The build time is definitely 20 hours or less including a Danish Oil finish, which will make a pleasant change from my usual business practise of quoting assuming 100 hours and ending up taking 200 hours. Ho hum!

I assume the twenty hour build time is because you've pretty much worked out jigs, formers and other production aids for a batch production type process? I strongly suspect a one-off example, starting from scratch, would take significantly longer, even if you were using CNC technology. Slainte.

Absolutely, it took more than 20 hours to lay out and make the copy routing jig. But after that I've been surprised at how efficient this little table is to produce. Virtually all components are a single thickness which makes stock preparation simple, almost all of the joinery is with a Domino, by tinkering with the design very slightly the end "panels" are 90% complete straight from the router, a 3mm round-over bit is all it takes to make it sanding ready, all the components get passed through a drum sander and then lay flat on a bench for finish sanding through the grits with an orbital sander, and best of all the side hung drawer design takes away all the time that usually goes into drawer fitting.

On the revenue side of the equation the design, although structurally iffy, is actually cute as a button. It's unusual, it fits nicely into any small alcove, it's versatile, a showy timber like Curly Cherry gives it plenty of impact without overpowering other furniture in the room, there's a "heritage" story to tell (and the weird thing is that with Shaker and Arts & Crafts you somehow avoid the phrase of death, namely "antique reproduction", even though that's exactly what it is), there's a traditionally made drawer complete with needle dovetails, drawer slips, muntin, and a Cedar of Lebanon drawer bottom, so the client is happy that it's hand crafted.

Maybe that was the real genius of the Shakers, cute designs with a hand crafted pedigree that can be made in a commercially viable time!

 

[JonnyW]

Hi Custard. Been reading this topic and posts with interest.

Would love to see photos of the finished piece.

Jonny

 

[Eric The Viking]

Really enjoying this, Custard.

Two things occur to me:

The short grained feet would originally have been less vulnerable than might be supposed, mainly because lino (or oilcloth) was the common floorcovering, rather than wall-to-wall carpets. Otherwise, just bare or waxed boards. So the table would skid rather than have the feet dig in. It's still not ideal though.

Secondly, is there a propensity to tip forward if a heavily loaded drawer is opened? I initially thought this would be worse if it's taller, but actualĺy it doesn't make any difference. I do wonder, though, if you might constrain the amount it opens for that reason - it really depends how heavy the top is, I guess.

E.

 

[marcros]

it is interesting to see things discussed from a commercial stance, where it shows the importance of efficiency to make the project viable.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Maybe that was the real genius of the Shakers, cute designs with a hand crafted pedigree that can be made in a commercially viable time!

On the other hand, the genuine reproduction nineteenth century computer desks, fitted kitchens, and 'media' units, etc I see from time to time I sometimes feel harshly expose the Shaker's short-sighted and limited design vision, don't you agree? Slainte.

 

[Eric The Viking]

Maybe that was the real genius of the Shakers, cute designs with a hand crafted pedigree that can be made in a commercially viable time!

On the other hand, the genuine reproduction nineteenth century computer desks, fitted kitchens, and 'media' units, etc I see from time to time I sometimes feel harshly expose the Shaker's short-sighted and limited design vision, don't you agree? Slainte.

Yes, but only the stuff without LED lighting and USB ports

 

[custard]

Hi Custard. Been reading this topic and posts with interest.

Would love to see photos of the finished piece.

Jonny

Hello Jonny, this is the finished piece from the original post, this one is in English Cherry.

I've subsequently done two more in American Curly/Fiddleback Cherry, and have an order for another in American Curly Cherry, plus it's led to a commission for a matching Shaker style "Chimney Cupboard", i.e. a free standing, tall, narrow unit with drawers and doors, again in American Curly Cherry.

The build time for these tables is hovering just above the target 20 hours at around 22 hours, but that's okay as there are still little changes that were incorporated into the design. The next order is just for one, but I'm going to build two with the additional one for stock, and I'm confident that I'll get them both done within one 40 hour working week. I'm jigged up to speed the build process and make full use of Dominos and copy routing, but an interim level hobbyist could realistically make one entirely by hand in a basic workshop in about 50 or 60 hours, and any tiny mismatches in the symmetry would only add to the charm. Despite my misgivings about the inherent design flaws it's a pretty little item and people seem smitten by the design's charm and novelty.

A final point that may be of interest. The notorious drawback of Cherry is that it is prone to "blotchiness" when you finish it. I've found that English Cherry suffers a lot less in this respect, but if you're lucky enough to be using American Cherry with Curly or Fiddleback figure then the "blotchiness" actually works to your advantage as it emphasises the figure, in fact I give the fiddleback pieces a light stain with a water soluble dye (after first raising the grain with hot water then sanding back) to really make the fiddleback figure "pop" before applying oil or varnish based finish coats.

 

[shuggy]

Very nice!

 

[marcros]

Custard

Do you have/have you considered having professional pictures taken of your work- I really like that table, and can only imagine how nice it would look in a highly figured cherry. A proper photo-shoot would help to lift it to another level I think.

Mark

 

[custard]

Custard

Do you have/have you considered having professional pictures taken of your work- I really like that table, and can only imagine how nice it would look in a highly figured cherry. A proper photo-shoot would help to lift it to another level I think.

Mark

I'm wrestling with this at the moment in that I'm debating whether or not to get a website. I know nothing about web design or web site maintenance, so I'm trying to understand how much time and money it would take to implement something.

And I'm far from clear if a web site is even the sensible way forward.

On the one hand my daughter's a professional photographer and she's offered to catalogue my output, plus the first question many prospective clients ask is "what's your web site?" On the other hand I'm getting pretty much all the business I could want without a web site, and I'd always much prefer to get a prospective client into my workshop and show them boards and discuss designs using sketches, books, maquettes and random photos rather than have them say, "can you do another of item X just a bit wider/taller/deeper?"

Maybe I should start a new thread and get some second opinions, there seems to be a few people on this forum with quite a lot of IT experience.