Dovetail Questions

[DannyEssex]

Hi guys I've got a couple of questions about dovetails.

1. Do you have the tails on the face side of a box or the pins? Is there a traditional way or is it the makers choice?

2. Holding the chisel when you are chopping and paring out the waste. I seem to hold the chisel with my index finger wrapped around the front, with my other three resting on the face of the chisel. I keep slicing my index finger where I grip the edge of the chisel. Is this normal? Do i just carry on and wait for tougher skin to form? I have read that you can take off the sharp edges on the sharpening stone, but should I do that on the face corners?

3. Would you recommend a decent coping saw blade? I got some cheap ones from wickes, and I have a hell of a time using the coping saw. I'm not sure if it's my technique or the blades. I have read some people have the teeth away from the handle and others have it the other way??

Thanks for any help
Dan

 

[MMUK]

1. I see how the piece has to behave structurally and orient my DTs to suit (ie; on a drawer I have the pins facing front so that the front face doesn't pull off, if you see what I mean?).

2. For light paring out, I tend to hold my chisel with my right hand and use my left fingers on top of the bevel side to keep even pressure with my thumb wrapped underneath against the workpiece.

3. I've found Bahco coping saw blades the sharpest and most durable. About £4 for a box of ten.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Post disappeared. Try again. Coping saws usually cut on the pull. Screwfix blades (Speedo, I believe) unless they've changed are good. The design and method of manufacture of "Eclipse" doesn't seem to have changed in decades.

 

[Racers]

You need a coping saw bowsaw to put lots of tension on the blade for the best results.
Here's one i made earlier.



And what it can do.



How about not using a coping saw? just chisel out the waste?

Pete

 

[DannyEssex]

Thanks guys

MMUK I just went and got a box of the Bahco blades. So will see how they go. Even though im right handed it feels more natural to hold the chisel with my left hand. I think I will have to play around with how I grip the chisel.

Thanks Phil i will make sure i get the blade the right way when im back out in the workshop.

Pete that is a lovely looking tool, maybe one day I will have skill to make one, it certainly cuts impressive.

 

[matthewwh]

Theres a very good blog post by Rob Porcaro about hand cutting dovetails here:

http://www.craftsy.com/blog/2014/05...&utm_campaign=-Registrations&initialPage=true

 

[Cheshirechappie]

1) I'm not sure there's a 'right' answer for boxes. Sometimes, it's obvious which way the greater mechanical strength is needed (with a drawer, for example), but not so with boxes. Quite a few seem to have the tails on the shorter side, but Chris Schwarz's Anarchist's Tool Chest (for example) has the tails on the longer side, maybe because the arrangement of the internal trays means that the ends moving outwards would be more detrimental than the sides moving outwards a bit. Perhaps it's down to each individual design.

2) I had that problem, too. Not being a time-served craftsman, I'm not sure if this is the 'pro' answer, but I slightly modified my chisel technique so that I gripped the chisel with my off-hand rather than allowed the chisel to slide through my fingers. That cuts down the range you can pare, but it's raraly a problem. I still brace the heel of my off-hand on the job, but allow my fingers to flex a little to allow the cut - so the chisel is firmly held by both hands, guided by the off-hand being braced against the workpiece, and the force of the cut provided by the dominant hand (or even by the shoulder on the end of the handle, on occasions). If this needs more force than is comfortable, I grip the chisel by the blade in my off-hand, between two or three fingers and thumb, and drive the cut by tapping with a mallet. Don't allow the chisel to slide through your fingers - you need control, here. You can cut quite accurately to a line this way, if the chisel is gripped (comfortably) as close to the work as possible. It helps to have a nicely-balanced chisel for this - over-heavy handles become something of a pain here.

I don't think there's any harm in just taking the sharpness off the side edges, but DON'T round them off - not even a little bit. You still want the crispness of cut in corners.

3) I've never really had a good relationship with my coping saw. It's the metal-frame sort, and it doesn't really tension the blade properly - the blade bends when in cut, sometimes. I think Pete's solution is a very good one, and making a decent wooden coping saw that will properly tension the blade is on my 'to-do' list. The blades are OK though - I've had a packet of Eclipse blades for donkey's years, and I can't wear 'em out! I've broken a couple - seems almost unavoidable with thin blades - but they hold an edge if you don't break them!

 

[Trafalgar]

Hi guys I've got a couple of questions about dovetails.

1. Do you have the tails on the face side of a box or the pins? Is there a traditional way or is it the makers choice?

2. Holding the chisel when you are chopping and paring out the waste. I seem to hold the chisel with my index finger wrapped around the front, with my other three resting on the face of the chisel. I keep slicing my index finger where I grip the edge of the chisel. Is this normal? Do i just carry on and wait for tougher skin to form? I have read that you can take off the sharp edges on the sharpening stone, but should I do that on the face corners?

3. Would you recommend a decent coping saw blade? I got some cheap ones from wickes, and I have a hell of a time using the coping saw. I'm not sure if it's my technique or the blades. I have read some people have the teeth away from the handle and others have it the other way??

Thanks for any help
Dan

1. Your choice.
2. Tape your finger, don't mess with the chisel arrises.
3. Chopping is easier and faster than fine paring the last ~16th of an inch of waste after sawing with a coping saw. If you have to use a coping saw then this one is really good for the price, the frame is made of flat bar stock. Frames of hollow metal are not good. You certainly don't need a $125 coping saw to saw dovetail waste. http://www.amazon.com/Olson-Coping-Saw/dp/B001F7LVJ6

 

[bugbear]

I keep slicing my index finger where I grip the edge of the chisel. Is this normal? Do i just carry on and wait for tougher skin to form? I have read that you can take off the sharp edges on the sharpening stone, but should I do that on the face corners?

It's really easy to soften the corners so they don't cut you. Just a touch (coupla' strokes) with an Arkansas stone
would do all that's needed, and won't measurably affect the "shape" of the chisel.

It often necessary to do this after you've flattened and polished the back
of a new (or newly restored) chisel. The sides are as sharp as the (front)edge.

BugBear

 

[DannyEssex]

Many thanks guys. Just to add, the Bahco blades are 100 times better than the cheap wickes blades :lol:

 

[Jacob]

An alternative to a coping saw is simply to do one cut straight down through the waste in the pin hole, with a tenon saw. Then chisel out the rest, the saw cut makes it easier to remove the chips. Quicker and easier than a coping saw.
If you are doing single kerf pin holes then you can start them with a straight tenon saw cut, then cut the sides with DT saw in the kerf.

 

[DannyEssex]

The coping saw is certainly a lot easier to use now with the bahco blades. I will carry on with the coping saw for now, when I get better and more confident with dovetails, I will experiment with different options.

I have just finished a small dovetailed box in pine and although its sloppy work compared to the guys on here, its not bad for me lol :lol:

 

[bugbear]

The coping saw is certainly a lot easier to use now with the bahco blades. I will carry on with the coping saw for now, when I get better and more confident with dovetails, I will experiment with different options.

If you acquire skill and confidence with the coping saw technique, I'd stick with it!

Unless you're just curious, of course, in which case a gentle meander around the highway and byways of DT technique can
be very interesting.

BugBear

 

[Trafalgar]

The coping saw is certainly a lot easier to use now with the bahco blades. I will carry on with the coping saw for now, when I get better and more confident with dovetails, I will experiment with different options.

I have just finished a small dovetailed box in pine and although its sloppy work compared to the guys on here, its not bad for me lol :lol:

Do what works for you.

It's a crisp baseline that defines a good looking joint. A gap off the baseline is easily and almost invisibly fixed with no problems. I think it's easier to keep a crisp baseline by chopping, the chisel is only on the baseline one time. When paring, be careful that while concentrating on paring the middle of joint (in thickness) that you keep the rest of the chisel off the baseline which can compress it and ruin that crispness you want. There really is no good fix for a boo-boo on the baseline, wavy baseline, compressed/rounded baseline, etc.

 

[DannyEssex]

I get plenty of boo-boos but its all in the fun of learning, when I try chopping the waste out, im always worried about creating a tear out on the opposite side. Do you only chop to half thickness and then flip over and carry on from the other side?

 

[Trafalgar]

I get plenty of boo-boos but its all in the fun of learning, when I try chopping the waste out, im always worried about creating a tear out on the opposite side. Do you only chop to half thickness and then flip over and carry on from the other side?

You absolutely work from both sides into the middle regardless of how you remove waste - paring or chopping.

If you like sawing the waste, then get this book to round out your technique:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Complete-Dove ... 0941936678

 

[Billy Flitch]

If your coping saw is not putting enough tension on the blade take the blade out of the frame and rap the back of the frame on a hard edge it puts the tension back in the frame. I use a Elipse coping saw frame had the same one for close on 50 years still does what it did when I bought it, big deal. BTW I use it with the teeth pointing forward always have done.

 

[Peter Sefton]

Traditionally you would expect the tails the be on the side as with a drawer, but you don't see the fantastic tail shape so much, which is why some people will make on the front.

The edge between the back of the chisel and the lands can become very sharp so I do pass my new and used chisels over 9 and 3 micron every so often just to remove the smallest edge.

i use a Piercing saw rather than a coping saw as the coping saw blades have a thicker kerf than my dovetail saw. The teeth should cut on the back stroke as a Japanese saw to keep the blade in tension. The Piercing saws we supply cost less than £14.00 and a pack of Pegas 15tpi Scroll Saw Blades are less than £3.00 you don't need to spend a fortune to get good results.

This is a video I posted a few years ago cutting Lapped Dovetails

http://tinyurl.com/Dovetail-video

Happy Dovetailing Peter

 

[Trafalgar]

Nice video, but I would urge the OP not to push the chisel all the way through from one face to the other on the tail board. There's no decent fix for a blowout or compression at the far baseline. Pare to a centre mound a la Ian Kirby and then remove it to a state of flatness.

And the video is a good reminder that one will have to chop anyway, at least when doing lap dovetails. The through joint is the only one in which chopping can be avoided on both halves of the joint.

You're gonna' have to do it anyway, might as well learn how to do it right....

 

[bugbear]

The teeth should cut on the back stroke as a Japanese saw to keep the blade in tension.

Not true if (and only if, mark you) the frame is stiff enough. A stiff frame puts enough tension
on that you can quite happily cut on the push stroke, without the blade going slack (with
all the trouble that causes).

BugBear