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Ian

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Yes very quick indeed - but you don't get quality at that speed - plus its much more enjoyable to take your time :)
 

Aled Dafis

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He's obviously cut a few dovetails in his time! That kind of speed only comes with a lot of practise.

On the other hand, he never actually shows any close ups of the finished joint, I doubt that his coping saw produces the kind of crisp edge that we find in high end cabinetry and box making.

A good reminder however that these skills need lots of PRACTISE to master.

Cheers
Aled
 

brianhabby

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Ditto on the points above, I was transfixed watching him - and he never touched a chisel! Thanks for sharing Andy.

I guess you're right Aled, he didn't really show any close-ups although what you saw at the end when he was planing looked pretty good - better than I could do no matter how long it would take me.

regards

Brian
 

tomatwark

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Yes not fine cabinetmaking.

But if you look at a of old pine chest of drawers this is about the quality of a lot of the dovetails

The Ikea of the day.


Tom
 

Lons

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Facinating - Thanks for sharing that, I was glued to it openmouthed

I couldn't do that in a million years - but then I wouldn't want to. A close look at him cutting the horizontals with the coping saw shows more undulations than the Himalayas so what's the point in speed at the cost of quality, except for the excercise to show it can be done?
I think a video showing how to cut a joint properly is much more valuable, especially to newcomers.

cheers

Bob
 

thecoder

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Lons":26avqqrp said:
Facinating - Thanks for sharing that, I was glued to it openmouthed

I couldn't do that in a million years - but then I wouldn't want to. A close look at him cutting the horizontals with the coping saw shows more undulations than the Himalayas so what's the point in speed at the cost of quality, except for the excercise to show it can be done?
I think a video showing how to cut a joint properly is much more valuable, especially to newcomers.

cheers

Bob

Agreed . :D
 

Jacob

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Lons":2h3ifk6m said:
....
I couldn't do that in a million years -...
I bet you could if you just put the time in. The main thing is repetition - once you have the basic technique then the more you do it the better it gets until you hit the optimum compromise between speed and quality
A close look at him cutting the horizontals with the coping saw shows more undulations than the Himalayas so what's the point in speed at the cost of quality, except for the excercise to show it can be done?
If you wanted a better finish you'd cut the shoulder lines first with a knife, and then chisel back to the line. Otherwise you'd do it just the same
I think a video showing how to cut a joint properly is much more valuable, especially to newcomers.

cheers

Bob
That is how to do it properly. A beginner might need to do more marking up, but free-handing is the way to go eventually.
 

Mike Wingate

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I saw him do a set of dovetails with this method live at Harrogate. He has skills and confidence. The dovetails were fine, ideal for drawers, in fact they were good for anything where dovetails are used. I went back to school and did a set, then another, then demo'd to the A level group who are doing a box with finger/comb joints. They are taking hours and hours with their box. I demo'd a box with comb joints on the Incra jig router table setup earlier to them, that took 4 minutes and really put them off and their teacher said it was all in the machine and jig. this time he had nothing to say as he went back to his computer.
 

Lons

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Jacob

You've entirely missed my point ( or perhaps I should have put it more simply ).

I bet you could if you just put the time in. The main thing is repetition - once you have the basic technique then the more you do it the better it gets until you hit the optimum compromise between speed and quality
OK you're right - given enough practice, I probably could but why would I want to cut rough dovetails ? it ain't my living !

If you wanted a better finish you'd cut the shoulder lines first with a knife, and then chisel back to the line. Otherwise you'd do it just the same
Agreed but the video doesn't make reference to that - so your point is ?

That is how to do it properly. A beginner might need to do more marking up, but free-handing is the way to go eventually.
Don't agree - it is in fact only half the story and shows nothing about detailing the cut after roughing out with the coping saw, thereby giving the wrong information to a beginner, and that was my point Jacob.

I was lucky to be taught by a perfectionist and I find the execution of a nicely cut dovetail immensly satisfying. I don't want rough dovetails and doubt if many other enthusiasts do either. Sadly I don't get to practice much now as I don't have time but if I wanted to speed cut a quantity I would just dig out the old (underused) Elu jig and router.

Bob

ps - Are you comments genuine or are you just "stirring the pot" again :lol:
 

Jacob

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Lons":2g5lgv3n said:
Jacob

You've entirely missed my point ......
No you have entirely missed my point. Not stirring the pot! As if I would. :roll:
You are wrong - what he shows is the essentials of how to make dovetails properly. Yes it is possible to refine them - mainly by cutting a shoulder line and chiselling back to it, but he does a good demo of the basic technique.

PS There's nothing he 's doing which you shouldn't do, no wrong information, but yes there are more things you could do if you want a better joint, which you may or may not, depending on what you are making.
He doesn't show the universal single kerf DT which is actually slightly easier than his demo. Nor does he show a blind DT as found on most drawers. But he does a good, basic, perfectly correct demo of a simple DT technique.
 

Jacob

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Mike Wingate":3ijop3du said:
..... A level group who are doing a box with finger/comb joints. They are taking hours and hours with their box. I demo'd a box with comb joints on the Incra jig router table setup earlier to them, that took 4 minutes and really put them off ......
:lol:
Finger/comb joint is a machine joint - madness to attempt to do it by hand.
 

Mike Wingate

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Agreed, I have never made a set of finger joints by hand, dovetails are better and just as quick. But that is the mentality and ability of modern technology teachers v's old style handicraft teachers. I shall soon retire and forget about endless paperwork and computer marking and assesment where you can no longer be negative. "A fine box young man, that will burn well, A*."
 

Lons

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Jacob":2x5rrrvl said:
Lons":2x5rrrvl said:
Jacob

You've entirely missed my point ......
No you have entirely missed my point. Not stirring the pot! As if I would. :roll:
You are wrong - what he shows is the essentials of how to make dovetails properly. Yes it is possible to refine them - mainly by cutting a shoulder line and chiselling back to it, but he does a good demo of the basic technique.

PS There's nothing he 's doing which you shouldn't do, no wrong information, but yes there are more things you could do if you want a better joint, which you may or may not, depending on what you are making.
He doesn't show the universal single kerf DT which is actually slightly easier than his demo. Nor does he show a blind DT as found on most drawers. But he does a good, basic, perfectly correct demo of a simple DT technique.

We clearly have different standards of work and if you're happy with rough stuff then good for you. Not for me to criticise your work and I wouldn't dream of it.

If speed was the object then there are many alternative methods and joints available for production purposes so why make dovetail joints at all unless they're done as well as you possibly can. That's where the satisfaction comes in Jacob, or don't you experience that? :?

Just to put the record straight. I am in awe of the skills of the guy in the video which was as he said produced to demonstrate what could be done in 8 minutes and as said I was fascinated but it's not the message I would put across to an inexperienced enthusiast wanting to learn how to produce quality work.

My critiscism therefore is that the description of the video in that it's basic and perhaps he should have said so and suggested that further work be needed to clean up the joints which, in that form are suitable for hidden drawer sides or similar applications only. Certainly not to be used on a quality jewellery box for instance.

Contrary to your comment, I would want a better joint on ALL of my work but fully accept that you or others might not be so pernickerty - Your perogative :roll:

I'm not going to argue with you further Jacob as that's clearly what you are angling for (again :lol:) and reviewing the content of some of your previous contributions which tend to degenerate into a one sided "I'm right and everyone else is a moron", I'm not going to fuel your addiction to abuse, so have a nice Sunday afternoon - oh, and don't forget to wipe your dummy when you pick it up off the floor :lol: :lol: :lol:

Bob
 

Jacob

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You are making the basic mistake of equating "quick" with "rough".
 

AndyT

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I think it's an interesting video.

It's part of the answer to the question "How did furniture makers of the 19th century manage to build items by hand quickly enough to be able to sell them at a price that the market would stand?" To make things quickly, without machinery, you need to work quickly and efficiently. So, in this demo, he does not bother with any marking lines that he does not need to look at, and does not further refine cuts which are good enough for their intended purpose. He produces a finished box which looks equal to the sort of furniture that was bought by ordinary people for a long time. It's not the finest work - they could not have afforded that.

One of the positive things about the discussions on this board is that they cover a wide range of angles - people making different grades of work, by hand and by machine, for sale or for the love of it. There is never just one right answer. What works for me as a hobby would be hopeless if I wanted to make a living at it. The techniques needed to make a rabbit hutch would be no good for a writing desk.

Where I would disagree with him is on the use of these techniques for drawers - where the need to cut lap dovetails favours sawing tails first, which are then worth gang-sawing for a further time saving, with quick chiselling on thin stock rather than all that coping saw work.

Does anyone know when thin coping saw blades became cheap and reliable enough to get into general use on work of this scale?
 

Lons

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Jacob":2ugymcxu said:
You are making the basic mistake of equating "quick" with "rough".
You are making the basic mistake of asuming that I have. - :) video shows a rough coping saw cut - rough is still rough however much time is taken to cut it.

I think it's an interesting video.

It's part of the answer to the question "How did furniture makers of the 19th century manage to build items by hand quickly enough to be able to sell them at a price that the market would stand?" To make things quickly, without machinery, you need to work quickly and efficiently. So, in this demo, he does not bother with any marking lines that he does not need to look at, and does not further refine cuts which are good enough for their intended purpose. He produces a finished box which looks equal to the sort of furniture that was bought by ordinary people for a long time. It's not the finest work - they could not have afforded that.

One of the positive things about the discussions on this board is that they cover a wide range of angles - people making different grades of work, by hand and by machine, for sale or for the love of it. There is never just one right answer. What works for me as a hobby would be hopeless if I wanted to make a living at it. The techniques needed to make a rabbit hutch would be no good for a writing desk.

Where I would disagree with him is on the use of these techniques for drawers - where the need to cut lap dovetails favours sawing tails first, which are then worth gang-sawing for a further time saving, with quick chiselling on thin stock rather than all that coping saw work.
Agree with all of that Andy
 

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