Do you live in a house more than a hundred years old?

[richarnold]

Hi folks.
I am currently embarking on a study of the use of pre industrial wooden planes and I have a question to anyone who lives in a property that is pre 1914, or has experience of working on windows in domestic buildings prior to this date.
What I am wondering about is the form of moldings used on vertical, horizontal, and common casement window sashes.
The main reason for my enquiry is that although I am very familiar with windows in my own geographical area (Northampton shire , Leicestershire, Rutland), I have a worry that I may be seeing a narrow cross section of what is typical over the whole of the country.
I am mostly interested in common domestic dwellings from a period of approximately 1700- 1914.
From my experience the predominate moulding used on windows in my area of the country is the common ovolo this can vary in size from square roman forms to elongated Grecian forms. I would estimate that this form of moulding makes up for more than 90% of the examples of sash moldings that I have seen. I have a suspicion that this may be true of the country as a whole, but it would be nice to hear from others in different areas as to whether this is the case. One reason I have for coming to this conclusion is that the vast majority of surviving sash planes still surviving are of this form.
The other molding that crops up on a fairly regular basis is the cove and astragal. This tends to turn up on slightly higher status homes built between 1760 and 1830.
Cheers, Richard.

 

[Jacob]

Copying stuff mostly in Derbys/Notts I've done miles of the ovolo much like your planes. More or less standard Victorian. 2" stuff finished at 44mm with 1/2" moulding and 1/2" flat, leaving 19mm for the glazing rebate, about 5 mm deep. This results in glazing bars 44 x 14mm.
NB nothing egg shaped about the ovolo - they are invariably circular in shape about the diameter of a 2p piece. I tried to do an eggy shape but it looked rubbish.

Most common variations are ditto bigger and smaller, or the lamb's tongue

I've also done a few "cove and astragal" (called "quirked astragal and hollow" in Nicholson) as you say on posher houses. The same profile is cut on the frame and the glazing bars but the "nib" is then taken off the glazing bar to leave the astragals as a circular reed.

Also done no moulding but just a bevel. This looks very trim and is not necessarily inferior, the overall geometry mirroring the moulded alternatives and hardly noticeable from a distance.

 

[PAC1]

I agree with Jacob's analysis. I served my apprenticeship in a North Nottinghamshire joiners shop it was a rare day when we were not matching to ovolo in the sizes referred to by Jacob. The locations covered were Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire and Lincolnshire. I now live in a very old timber framed house in Staffordshire but when I arrived there were none of the original windows. A joiner I know says a lot of windows had a 45 degree bevel on them.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

I think it is more modern sash ovolo that is a quarter of a circle. Older is often quarter elliptical, (egg shaped, if you like) evidential in the planes you photographed. It does not look 'rubbish' at all. I recently had to replace some missing moulding from my house, and bought a pair of sash ovolo planes to match it, since modern router bits and spindle knives are invariably quarter round shapes and would not match what I needed. My house dates 1888, but sadly has almost no original woodwork left. I have taken pains to replace all the internal woodwork I can, with period correct mouldings and things are starting to look good again.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

.... Older is often quarter elliptical, (egg shaped, if you like) evidential in the planes you photographed.

An easy mistake. They are not particularly egg shaped or elliptical on richarnold's planes. Nor quarter circles but arcs of circles - as I said approx 2p piece radius is common.
I found this out the hard way by making my first cutter distinctly ovolo shaped and it looked completely wrong, so I went to original examples to copy rather than imposing my idea of how they should be.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Hello, I think it is more modern sash ovolo that is a quarter of a circle. Older is often quarter elliptical, (egg shaped, if you like) Mike.

Mike, I wonder if you're maybe thinking of the Roman Ogee where many modern cutters use arcs for both the Syma recta and Syma reversa profiles whereas old forms used intersecting elliptical sweeps which gave a much sweeter profile (in my opinion anyway). Slainte.

 

[Jacob]

I think he's just making the natural assumption that something called an ovolo will actually be egg shaped.

 

[G S Haydon]

Hi Richard,

The oldest sash windows I have worked on were originally from Stowe House (Richard Grenville's House In Kilkhampton). Stowe was built in the later part of the 17th century so it's likely the sashes were from that time. Being so early they feature large glazing bars, kinda ex 2" stuff with a quadrant moulding. Similar in design are some windows at Kings Nympton Park. They are a little later being most likely very early 18th Century but the have the large glazing bars and quadrant mould.

More typically I see profiles as your moulding planes, I would agree than on balance about 90% of remaining windows bars are done like that.

I also see mid 20th cent stuff that was made using standard sash profile that could be purchased from the builders merchants, that profile is close to a quadrant. My fave is examples with the mould applied with the electric router with those nice rounded edges where the bearing meets the corners!

 

[richarnold]

Hi guys.
The mould that the pair of planes I illustrated is what I have always understood to be a Grecian ovolo. this is formed from part of an elliptical curve and is not part of a true radius. A lot of earlier examples of windows often have Roman ovolos which are formed with a true radius in the form of a full quadrant. I may be wrong but I had it in my mind that this was one of the fundamental differences between Grecian and Roman architecture.
Having said all that it would be nice to keep this thread on track rather than getting bogged down as to what an ovolo is.
Any body out there from the further regions of the country? I'm not familiar at all with Welsh trends so that would be interesting to hear.
Cheers Richard

 

[G S Haydon]

Quick edit, I'm in Devon!

 

[richarnold]

Hi Richard,

The oldest sash windows I have worked on were originally from Stowe House (Richard Grenville's House In Kilkhampton). Stowe was built in the later part of the 17th century so it's likely the sashes were from that time. Being so early they feature large glazing bars, kinda ex 2" stuff with a quadrant moulding. Similar in design are some windows at Kings Nympton Park. They are a little later being most likely very early 18th Century but the have the large glazing bars and quadrant mould.

More typically I see profiles as your moulding planes, I would agree than on balance about 90% of remaining windows bars are done like that.

I also see mid 20th cent stuff that was made using standard sash profile that could be purchased from the builders merchants, that profile is close to a quadrant. My fave is examples with the mould applied with the electric router with those nice rounded edges where the bearing meets the corners!

:lol: :lol: :lol: We always called them television mouldings . make me cringe every time I see them. :lol:

 

[woodbrains]

Hello, I think it is more modern sash ovolo that is a quarter of a circle. Older is often quarter elliptical, (egg shaped, if you like) Mike.

Mike, I wonder if you're maybe thinking of the Roman Ogee where many modern cutters use arcs for both the Syma recta and Syma reversa profiles whereas old forms used intersecting elliptical sweeps which gave a much sweeter profile (in my opinion anyway). Slainte.

Hello,

Perhaps!
I think whatever the ovolo shape is, the modern quarter circle is different from the older shape. Ellipses can be drawn (approximately) with 2 intersecting arcs of true circles. Such small scale moulds would be so similar to a portion of an arc, it wouldn't matter. I don't see why they still shouldn't be called what they (are) emulate; a quarter ellipse. They are definitely NOT like modern quarter circle ovolos we see now. Wealden Router lists just one cutter which is similar to the old planes' ovolos, which is described as 'flat ovolo'. It is the only modern router cutter I could find that looks good for repro work, but a pair of old moulding planes was cheaper and fun for my needs.

Mike.

 

[HOJ]

No Ovolo's here

Not mine, I might add, replaced these a couple of years ago, had to match existing but upgrade to DG units, Grade 2 listed.

South Norfolk

 

[blackrodd]

Same here, in sunny Devon.
Most of my "splicing" and repairs, required by N. Heritage etc has been on 4"x 2", 3"x "2, 2"x 2" stock ovolo framing and 2"x 1" glazing bar, as per original,
Have repaired some windows in oak but they were very weather worn and could just see a small beading mould only, as in bead and butt.
Surprising the number of windows, two openers, seem to be 39"x 39" (nearly the metre) square in many out buildings, as well as cottages round here. Regards Rodders

 

[Jacob]

Hello, I think it is more modern sash ovolo that is a quarter of a circle. Older is often quarter elliptical, (egg shaped, if you like) Mike.

Mike, I wonder if you're maybe thinking of the Roman Ogee where many modern cutters use arcs for both the Syma recta and Syma reversa profiles whereas old forms used intersecting elliptical sweeps which gave a much sweeter profile (in my opinion anyway). Slainte.

Hello,

Perhaps!
I think whatever the ovolo shape is, the modern quarter circle is different from the older shape. Ellipses can be drawn (approximately) with 2 intersecting arcs of true circles. Such small scale moulds would be so similar to a portion of an arc, it wouldn't matter. I don't see why they still shouldn't be called what they (are) emulate; a quarter ellipse. They are definitely NOT like modern quarter circle ovolos we see now. Wealden Router lists just one cutter which is similar to the old planes' ovolos, which is described as 'flat ovolo'. It is the only modern router cutter I could find that looks good for repro work, but a pair of old moulding planes was cheaper and fun for my needs.

Mike.

The Wealden Flat ovolo here is just like the one I made which was wrong. They've followed the same reasoning: "it says ovolo so it must be egg shaped". But in fact if you actually look they are nearly always closer to the arc of a circle. NB this isn't the same as a quarter circle - which might cause confusion!
The best way to learn about how old stuff was made is to look at old stuff, and not make any assumptions.
One thing I've learned over the years is that hardly any router or spindle cutters have been made by people who have looked at old stuff.
Similarly there has been a lot of "restoration" work done by people who haven't looked. We got to thinking of it as the work of the blind joiner: "look at this the blind joiner 's been again"!

 

[Jacob]

Hi Richard,

The oldest sash windows I have worked on were originally from Stowe House (Richard Grenville's House In Kilkhampton). Stowe was built in the later part of the 17th century so it's likely the sashes were from that time. Being so early they feature large glazing bars, kinda ex 2" stuff with a quadrant moulding. Similar in design are some windows at Kings Nympton Park. They are a little later being most likely very early 18th Century but the have the large glazing bars and quadrant mould.

More typically I see profiles as your moulding planes, I would agree than on balance about 90% of remaining windows bars are done like that.

I also see mid 20th cent stuff that was made using standard sash profile that could be purchased from the builders merchants, that profile is close to a quadrant. My fave is examples with the mould applied with the electric router with those nice rounded edges where the bearing meets the corners!

:lol: :lol: :lol: We always called them television mouldings . make me cringe every time I see them. :lol:

My wife is into TV stuff like Jane Austen. I sit there moaning on about the non-period stripped pine, modern glass (large panes ) etc etc it's the only pleasure I get out of it!
PS not to mention the dreary Farrow and total balls colour schemes. If you have the luck to uncover something hidden from sun and air you discover that the Georgians were often into really bright colours, as per cleaned-up paintings. The past wasn't all faded or sepia tinted.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Jacob, I do look at old stuff, hence buying a sash ovolo plane, rather than use quarter round router/spindle cutter. The plane is markedly different than a simple arc. Could be due to the fact I sharpened it, it's previous owner sharpened it, the maker made it by eye and judgement and all things become a bit imperfect and 'hand made'. Whatever the cause, the profile is not an arc, but did match very well to the existing mould I wanted to splice it into. Modern cutters are portions of arcs, because mass production dictates that it is so. Even the OP recognises the old ovolos are not true arcs, for whatever reason, and describes them as egg shaped. They have a bit of life to them, whereas a regular arc does not. Richard Jones post about old ogee moulds being more interesting because of their complex elliptical nature, rather than modern derivations based on true arcs, is correct. Only sensitive eyes notice and care about such subtleties. If I have time tomorrow, I will strike a mould with my planes and we will see how close to an arc it is.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

.......They have a bit of life to them, whereas a regular arc does not. ....

Exactly the opposite.
It's not a choice between "a sash ovolo plane, rather than use quarter round router/spindle cutter" - what I'm saying is that the sash ovolo plane (like richarnold's above) is not much of an ovolo at all, and it's a misnomer.
That Wealden cutter which is almost an ovolo will produce a very dull glazing bar. I know this I made the same mistake. The effect is more "bull nose" or "thumb" rather than elegant ovolo
What I found by looking more closely was that almost all old window "ovolos" are actually a simple arc. The effect is much livelier somehow - but more importantly it will match the old profile. In any case the cutters were shaped (and sharpened) freehand and even if not a perfect arc would also not be obviously identifiable as an ovolo.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Jacob, you must be the only person I know who thinks a quarter round is more appealing than some elliptical, or parabolic or some other compound curve, but then each to their own, I suppose.

Think about this; sharpening the plane's cutter is done with abrasive wrapped around a dowel, or a slip stone based on part of a cylinder. When a flat plane intersects a cylinder, the cross section is an ellipse. It is almost a given that the natural shape of ovolo plane cutters will be elliptical.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Hello,

Jacob, you must be the only person I know who thinks a quarter round is more appealing than some elliptical, or parabolic or some other compound curve, but then each to their own, I suppose.

Think about this; sharpening the plane's cutter is done with abrasive wrapped around a dowel, or a slip stone based on part of a cylinder. When a flat plane intersects a cylinder, the cross section is an ellipse. It is almost a given that the natural shape of ovolo plane cutters will be elliptical.

Mike.

You haven't understood what I'm saying. I haven't said anything about a quarter round. The shapes of richarnolds "ovolo" planes are spot on and very typical - it's just that the curves aren't actually ovolo in the sense of egg shaped, or anything like the Wealden cutter which you recommended, or quarter round. They are basically arcs of a circle - or close to, in terms of hand shaping. Certainly not elliptical, parabolic or any other compound shape. I often used a 2p piece as a standard curve for cutters, where appropriate

NB You are confused - an arc of a circle doesn't mean only a quadrant. Think "toe nail clipping"? Perhaps not, I bet yours are semi circular. :roll: