Curved crown/cornice moulding

[davin]

Just wondered if anyone has done moulding like the examples below, Have been asked if I can do them, erm where do I start ?

thanks davin

 

[Steve Maskery]

Well if that is really as old as it looks it was probably done with a scratchstock. Easy enough, but a lot of work ( and you'd better get those complex mitres spot on...)
S
PS
(No, I've never actually done it myself)

 

[Peter Sefton]

I made a cabinet very similar to this one about 20 years ago. From memory I ring fence spindled the long curves and used the straight fence for the side return mouldings. The short tight curves were hand carved to match the profile. The next issues may be that the top of the doors catch the moulding as they open.
It’s a good looking piece of furniture and will be time consuming.

 

[davin]

Thanks for the help,

Scratch stock was obviously how it was done originally.
I have a small spindle moulder (but no ring fence-can I make one?)
The problem I could see that when I machine the long curve I would be going aganst the grain halfway through the curve (make sense?)
could I machine the curve in a series (say 3 shorter lengths on a jig) then join them afterwards, that would would get fid of the short grain problem?
Amazing what keeps you up at night isn't it,

Davin

 

[marcros]

Norm did something with a imilar moulding on the New Yankee Workshop. I cant remember quite how or what, but when Peter mentioned hand carving the tight bit, it jogged my memory. I think that it was on a clock.

 

[Guggs]

I have done mouldings like that and like all things curved it the jig and template that hold the key . Most tight curves were done using either slotted collars or a french head . French head are now obsolete but if you can find one then lucky you ! A french head has a very small cutting circle unlike todays blocks which have a cutting circle starting from 125 mm dia . With a french head you can do a tiny curve from 30mm onwards . The cutters are made from a mild steel and are profiled with files etc .Unlike todays cutters that require the cutter to be cround at a cutting angle the French head cutters are ground full on . Also the burr is left on the help with the cutting . I have done mouldings very similar and there are several ways of doing so either using a bearing guide ,over head router or a saddle and a 'pudding' .
If i can work out how to upload pictures i'll post some on here .

 

[AndyT]

I think if you tried to do something on that scale with a scratchstock, it would be an antique by the time you had finished it!

I think it would be more like:

• Draw a template and mark out
  Bow saw to shape (jigsaw if you like!)
  Smooth outside curves with compass plane
  waste away most of the wood with gouges
  possibly define elements using a router plane (eg Stanley 71) on a trammel

Any internal corners would have to be hand carved.

Roy Underhill demonstrates some simpler but relevant work in his episode on the Corner Cupboard showing how to carve a moulding curved on plan - similar to the heads of the doors.

http://video.unctv.org/video/1427712879

 

[Peter Sefton]

I think Guggs is on the right lines for spindle work - the template making and work holding always holds the key and makes spindle work so much safer. Although I would recommend you stay away from French heads or slotted collars - they were good for scraping cuts but made illegal for good reason.

I would try hard not to split the cornice into smaller sections although this would help with working against the grain, as the cornice will in time move on the end grain joints and look unsightly. The grain direction problem may not be such as issue especially if you are painting the item as the original, but one way of overcoming this is (if you have forward and reverse on your spindle) you can work the moulding in both directions with the grain. Ensure you reset up the chip limited cutter block to suit the spindle rotation :!:

For this type of operation I would make up my own ring fence from 18mm ply but you must have a sufficient bonnet guard. The ring fence should be bigger than the diameter of the cutting circle so that you can control the amount of cut in small passes - do not use a bearing ring as this could be very dangerous :!:

The other ways of doing this type of work is hand carving or CNC routed where the operator is a safe distance from any cutters.

I'm not sure how much experience you have of spindle work, so I hope I don't sound patronizing when I say that this type of spindle work is quite advanced and not something to learn about solely from a forum. Please do be very careful as we can only advise you on some of the overall possibilities for doing such work.

Cheers

Peter

 

[Guggs]

One of the biggest issues to consider when doing large circular mouldings is the fact that the depth of cut cannot be reached as you need to take in to consideration the spindle shaft diameter plus the ring fence thickness .Its often a case of running the curve on a saddle .Using straight fences however this presents another set of safety issues plus the mould needs to be adjusted as it cuts different to running it passed the ring fence . Hope i'm not getting to technical but experience see's problems that others cant

 

[davin]

Thanks for all the help and pm's.

I am going to make a more simplified version, will let you know how it turns out.

Will probably make a template, make a temporary router table out of a large sheet of ply or mdf, (maybe 1mtr square) and run the moulding off bearing cutter bits.
Just one more silly person question. If the curve was made up of shorter lengths, how would you join them?

thanks again

Davin

 

[Sawyer]

I'm with Peter on this - avoid french heads or slotted cutters. Between them, they are largely responsible for the spindle moulder's evil reputation. A reputation which has become unjustified, as modern tooling has made things much safer.

Some of my earliest colleagues in the trade began working in the 1930s and related hideous tales of flying cutters (usually from french or slotted heads) and poorly guarded machinery.

Strictly speaking limiters are a legal requirement for all hand fed work on a spindle. If working on a ring fence, don't even contemplate using anything without limiters.

 

[Peter Sefton]

Thanks for all the help and pm's.

I am going to make a more simplified version, will let you know how it turns out.

Will probably make a template, make a temporary router table out of a large sheet of ply or mdf, (maybe 1mtr square) and run the moulding off bearing cutter bits.
Just one more silly person question. If the curve was made up of shorter lengths, how would you join them?

thanks again

Davin

I would mount them on a back board to give them overall strength and loose tongue between the end grain joints to give some better side grain gluing, good luck with the job a sensible solution

 

[DOOGYREV]

I'm with Peter on this - avoid french heads or slotted cutters. Between them, they are largely responsible for the spindle moulder's evil reputation. A reputation which has become unjustified, as modern tooling has made things much safer.

Some of my earliest colleagues in the trade began working in the 1930s and related hideous tales of flying cutters (usually from french or slotted heads) and poorly guarded machinery.

Strictly speaking limiters are a legal requirement for all hand fed work on a spindle. If working on a ring fence, don't even contemplate using anything without limiters.

I would have to agree, the french spindle as I know it, can be a very dangerous bit of kit, and not just for flying cutters but for snatching the wood very easily, and causing injury that way.

I have had to match similar curved moulding and built it up in layers, as you and others have mentioned.