Coronavirus

[FatmanG]

it seems most of the run-of-the-mill emergency patients are so scared of catching something there, they're learning pull their own splinters out.

But the flip side Graham is that other surgery is well down as well, partly because patients are cancelling as they're scared of catching the virus in hospital and others like a friend who was due to have treatment for prostrate cancer. The treatment is postponed but the cancer won't know that. My wife has an important consultation scheduled for early May and that now appears to be in doubt as well.

Talking this morning to a friend who lives on the outskirts of Newcastle and he says the difference in air quality is very noticeable. That said we back on to a main road to the Scottish Borders and there were quite a lot of cars on that road today!

My wife had major surgery at Nuffield 3 weeks last thursday Lons and she was due to have a check up after 6 weeks they have changed it to a telephone check up and advised that all consultations will be telephone ones unless there is a problem like discharge from infections etc. It would not surprise me to see a lot of future consultations with more NHS services will be done over the phone once a diagnosis has been made or surgery been done.

 

[Andy Kev.]

nope, I'm right with you on that one, people are people and a uniform doesn't change that (or a suit).

And the antidote to that is careful selection of recruits and training of the highest quality, so that you end up putting the right kind of people in uniforms.

 

[rafezetter]

I think the problem is that we in the western world generally have, in material terms, soft and easy lives. Our justice system has also become very soft. A couple of centuries ago you would receive the most dire punishment for e.g. theft. This was rightly recognised as being too harsh on people who often were so destitute that they had no alternative to crime.

I've thought for some time that for some crimes we need to have the option of sentences which carry a degree of brutality as these would be proportionately more effective against people used to a soft life. For offences like the one in question, which are utterly unprovoked, potentially deadly and which can only regarded as being "recreational", I would have thought that severe and extremely painful (possibly public) floggings would be the answer. The stocks could be available for lesser offences like vandalism. Such sentences would be quick, cheap to administer and, I imagine, highly effective in their deterrent influence.

I realise that such a view will provoke outrage from some but I think it worthy of serious consideration. FWIW I want to see a society where people are kind, polite and considerate of their fellows. It might seem odd to resort to such recommendations for dealing with the extreme fringes of civil behaviour.

I realise that this is somewhat off topic but corona is giving rise to a number of side issues.

Ah I now realise this is the post you are referring to.

I agree that in certain areas our justice system has become too soft/ineffective. That being said crime still continues to fall and the world continues to become a safer place. I am afraid I don't agree that we need to make punishments more severe but I do think we need a bit of reform to some areas. I am glad to see you don't condone the disgusting views aired by others here such as summary justice and vigilante murder.

Sorry rorschach but deliberately infecting anoher with a life threatening virus is tantamount to attempted murder.

not sure of the exact details but that guy not long back who was sentanced to jail for wilfully infecting women with aids - ..oh dear - I've just googled it - there have been dozens of cases all over the world of people wilfully transferring aids.

so yes - a bullet to the head, no maybe's - if it saves just ONE Life - or the life of a FOUR YEAR OLD CHILD, who was infected by an italian man via his mother who was still breastfeeding (yes it happens) then yes, a bullet.

(oh and the suit defending him "he's just misunderstood and misses his mommy" - yeah, really, this after infecting 54 women, 3 men via the women, and a child).

anything less and you just allow more of the same. Yet another "what about thier rights?" liberal.

contact all those infected, ask them what they would do, then get back to me - or put that question to all your friends and relatives - you might be suprised by what comes back.

aids, corona - XYZ next time - unless you put something in place that is a real actual and fearful deterrant - as harsh a penalty as MAD - "mutually assured destruction" for the world superpowers, nothing will stop it, and maybe not even then, but you'll sure as eggs reduce the number of cases.

How many lives are you willing to spend Rorschach in defence of a criminals "civil liberties?"

answer that one with a straight face, and make us beleive you're right.

 

[Droogs]

Why not put them in the stocks and then brand their backside with a little cross for each person that died on the day of the offence and then they have to walk around in arseless chaps for the rest of their lives so people know what a sprout they are

 

[rafezetter]

nope, I'm right with you on that one, people are people and a uniform doesn't change that (or a suit).

And the antidote to that is careful selection of recruits and training of the highest quality, so that you end up putting the right kind of people in uniforms.

I agree but vetting is only part of it - I met a very nice police lady during the course of an other incident with local kids a few years back and she did say that sometimes cases where the parents let the kids run wild can change how people in the force view people, they cannot help but develop a beleif to a greater or lesser degree that "people are scum".

I by no means think all police are corrupt, Erikthevikings sister (now retired) is lovely, or that they all view us civvies negatively, but the force has often been very slow to respond and deal with those in the force that have been negatively effected by incidents, that are sometimes very harrowing for them.

They also need to stop with the whole "we turn a blind eye to the corrupt within our ranks" as has been proven time and again.

The force has often been the cause of thier own bad PR and public view of them.

 

[Andy Kev.]

My wife had major surgery at Nuffield 3 weeks last thursday Lons and she was due to have a check up after 6 weeks they have changed it to a telephone check up and advised that all consultations will be telephone ones unless there is a problem like discharge from infections etc. It would not surprise me to see a lot of future consultations with more NHS services will be done over the phone once a diagnosis has been made or surgery been done.

I hope that two things fall out of this current crisis:

a. A review leads to a really robust and comprehensive contingency plan for the next outbreak of a (potentially much more deadly) disease. The lessons are piling up now and we just need to learn from them. IMO the plan needs to cover everything from medical logistics right through to provisions for businesses.

b. A new approach for the day to day running of medical services so as to stop time and resources being routinely squandered. People must surely be waking up to how important hygiene is and perhaps more importantly to what they can do to help in a medical crisis.

Given that this disease isn't terribly deadly (I know that is no consolation to those who have lost people dear to them and we surely don't want to attach little weight to their grief) we have actually been lucky. It has provided a wake up call about some of the side effects of globalisation and a lot of the luxury which we take for granted e.g. being able to hop on a plane to anywhere at ridiculously low cost.

 

[FatmanG]

The U.S.A has the death penalty for 1st degree murder and have had so for a long time it has been proven over many years that even though the ultimate deterrent is in use the murder rate has continued to climb. Killing is killing in my opinion and then you have examples like Ruth Ellis or Derrick Bentley the mentally challenged young lad from the North East who's crime was made into a film let him have it. I think there has to be a big change to the criminal justice system a very big change and some serious deterrents put in place but taking a life is murder and I do not believe under any circumstance we have the right to take a life.
Fatty

 

[Andy Kev.]

I agree but vetting is only part of it - I met a very nice police lady during the course of an other incident with local kids a few years back and she did say that sometimes cases where the parents let the kids run wild can change how people in the force view people, they cannot help but develop a beleif to a greater or lesser degree that "people are scum".

I by no means think all police are corrupt, Erikthevikings sister (now retired) is lovely, or that they all view us civvies negatively, but the force has often been very slow to respond and deal with those in the force that have been negatively effected by incidents, that are sometimes very harrowing for them.

They also need to stop with the whole "we turn a blind eye to the corrupt within our ranks" as has been proven time and again.

The force has often been the cause of thier own bad PR and public view of them.

I'm ex-Army and in general terms have a very jaundiced view of some aspects of civil society and I'm afraid I do believe that some people are utter scum. I usually keep that to myself because there are loads of people who are perfectly decent (I hope they are in the majority) and in any event civil society is what soldiers serve.

The police have a problem (I'm assuming here an ideal police force with no corruption, no idiots etc.) in that they are a bit isolated in society. Politicians and educators seem to have given up on the idea of responsibility towards one's fellow citizens in the sense that there are virtually no penalties for being inconsiderate and irresponsible. So we expect the police to go out and deal with a society where everybody feels they have rights but no responsibilities and they are most reluctant to accept any kind of censure/restriction on their behaviour when it is necessary.

The other side of the coin is that policing needs to be sensible (hence the need for good and well trained recruits). I could well be missing something but I can't for the life of me see anything wrong with somebody lying in the sun on the grass in a park and they are about fifty feet away from the nearest person. That said, the police could have been advised on good medical grounds that such behaviour is unacceptable, in which case it is OK.

 

[Droogs]

@ FatmanG
Not even when that life is trying to take yours? So you wouldn't kill someone trying to gut you or slash your throat? Sorry I know you would fight them and even try to chew their throat out if you could unless you are a very weak person. You would be amazed at a persons will to survive and what you would do

 

[rafezetter]

Why not put them in the stocks and then brand their backside with a little cross for each person that died on the day of the offence and then they have to walk around in arseless chaps for the rest of their lives so people know what a sprout they are

Not such an odd thing to say - there was a program - Twilight zone where people who did something bad (but not jailable) were "sent to coventry" for a year which used to be a UK school thing where people just wouldn't talk to you and ignored your existance.

By the end of the year the bloke was half mad. When it got lifted people instantly pretended to "see" him and he was grateful and thankful. then he saw a woman "in coventry" and..... spoke to her telling her how he felt her pain and sympathised.... which was a breach of the protocol - thereby immediately being put back and ignored. Whoops!

it was an interesting lesson in human nature - and how something so simple can be so punative.

Sure I saw in a film where rapists were tattoed with an R on thier foreheads, then let society as a whole deal with them how they see fit.

 

[Droogs]

There have been many SciFi short stories of that ilk over the years from the fifities on. The one I remember as the first I read was about a chap you was sentence to 2 years for theft and as everything was done by electronic computational payment he was given an unlimited bank account to have anything he wanted and at the same time a catatonia inducing fear of computers, a very interesting read for a fourteen year old in the early 80's. Especially as it was even then an old nebula short story compendium

probably was at the back of my mind reading this thread lol

 

[FatmanG]

Andy-Kev
I hope there is a nation wide rethink of how we live our lives, how we provide care and how we make provisions for another pandemic etc. The one thing that is clear to me though is how much we all value our NHS and it is time it is resourced properly and the people within it are treated properly. No doubt there are huge challenges to come economically, hopefully people will learn the lessons of good hygiene and will start to eat properly and exercise. I have had a good look at myself during this pandemic and made some big changes that are quite frankly well overdue and I am ashamed of myself for not making them 20 years ago.

 

[Droogs]

as above and I do hope certain organisations that are now seen as essential to the nations overall wellbeing are no longer used as "footballs" by politians and are treated and funded in the way that they need to be rather than at the whim of the current in vogue political creed

 

[FatmanG]

@ FatmanG
Not even when that life is trying to take yours? So you wouldn't kill someone trying to gut you or slash your throat? Sorry I know you would fight them and even try to chew their throat out if you could unless you are a very weak person. You would be amazed at a persons will to survive and what you would do

Thats different Droogs and yes I would fight for my life. I meant that sentencing in court as a punishment. Fighting for your life is self defence mate and everybody has that right. Instinct, reactions, reflexes those are natural and cannot be helped and if someone was trying to kill me i would use everything in my power including picking up a weapon and using it. I cannot deny that

 

[Andy Kev.]

Andy-Kev
I hope there is a nation wide rethink of how we live our lives, how we provide care and how we make provisions for another pandemic etc. The one thing that is clear to me though is how much we all value our NHS and it is time it is resourced properly and the people within it are treated properly. No doubt there are huge challenges to come economically, hopefully people will learn the lessons of good hygiene and will start to eat properly and exercise. I have had a good look at myself during this pandemic and made some big changes that are quite frankly well overdue and I am ashamed of myself for not making them 20 years ago.

In general terms I agree with you. This will be a rare matter where we will genuinely need political leadership. If this is properly managed there should be no problem in getting widespread public support for a change to our habits in the future. There will certainly be no room/shouldn't be any room for pathetic party politics and/or ideology.

 

[FatmanG]

yep couldnt agree more

 

[Chris152]

I hope there is a nation wide rethink of how we live our lives, how we provide care and how we make provisions for another pandemic etc. The one thing that is clear to me though is how much we all value our NHS and it is time it is resourced properly and the people within it are treated properly. No doubt there are huge challenges to come economically, hopefully people will learn the lessons of good hygiene and will start to eat properly and exercise. I have had a good look at myself during this pandemic and made some big changes that are quite frankly well overdue and I am ashamed of myself for not making them 20 years ago.

i share you hope, but suspect the full force of commodity/ commercial culture will swing into play the moment restrictions begin to lift and people will be out buying their much-needed MaccyDs and saving their pennies for a number plate that bears a slight resemblance to their name etc.
Amid our local FB group thread where people were congratulating themselves on clapping for the NHS, i placed a pic and link to the One million claps appeal - raising money £5 at a time by a simple text - for the same carers being applauded (https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/12672 ... for-carers). Not one person commented on this, almost as if it didn't exist. Clapping and cheering is cheap - we did that and i think it's a good thing to do. but it's not enough, and i doubt people will put their money where their mouths are when things return to normal. Let's face it, we all desperately want things to go back to normal.

 

[rafezetter]

Rorschach, you need to just slow down and take a deep breath. If a mate of yours in a pub said "that fool deserves a bullet between the eyes", how would you react? Would you assume he was talking literally, and that it was only the fear of being caught that stopped him from murdering the said individual, or would you understand immediately that this was a figure of speech?

Now, if you think the former, please ring up the police and report Roger. His surname is easily available, and the post which so offended you is still available here as evidence. Go on, put your morals to the test...ring them and report this crime (as you see it).

Or you could take the rational approach of understanding that using hyperbole is standard every day stuff. You yourself will use a figure of speech, an idiom, a phrasal verb, before your mid morning tea break, I promise you. It serves your purpose, for some reason I can't fathom, to allow different standards for yourself than you do for others with regards to figures of speech, and whatever you think of Roger it doesn't reflect well on you to deliberately mis-represent the nature of someone's words.

I understand hyperbole and I agree, there are things said in conversation that people do not necessarily condone. Had Roger actually said that though, or has he confirmed that he does indeed think this suitable? And not just Roger, others here have said the same. Hyperbole when saying an off the cuff remark is one thing, taking the time to write it out and then confirm it again is another.
I do appreciate your remarks though and trying to bring some sensibility but at the moment I believe you to be wrong and I think those people really do mean it, I hope that isn't the case.

As to my own differing standards, could you be more specific as to where you think I was being hyperbolic? I am not to proud to clarify my statements or retract them where I might have gone too far. I know I am not a perfect moral arbiter, far from it, they are only opinions after all and subject to change.

He may have been agreeing or remarking on one of my posts.

however let ME make one thign absolutely clear - I would actually really and truly do it.

It's clear to me that you and many other readers have never been a victim - and I don't mean a victim of something minor I mean being subjected to the craven depravity of a familial sex offender, or the wilful beatings of a rage fueled parent, or utterly neglected and ignored by a stepmother, or the target of teachers scoring points off you to gain favor with the rest of the class, saying things that in todays world would get them arrested and charged - and many others like burglery and rape.

you can scoff and think this is hyperbole and I truly with with my entire soul wish it was - but it isn't.

I cannot get married, and cannot have children lest the brutal legacy passed from his father to mine, gets passed down again through me, I have seen glimpses of it and it fills me with a fear you cannot imagine.

I KNOW the pain, the destruction and LIFETIME consequences caused by the wilful acts of a destructive human being - and if they are infected with corona or something else and wilfully try to infect another - "destructive human being" is what they are and need to be treated like the virus they carry.

you do not know what it's like to wear my shoes, and the shoes of people who have been subjected to and died from - eithe directly or via suicide - the sick acts of other human beings.

I'm telling you this "too much information" because until you've experienced this - you cannot KNOW the cost, and any viewpoint you have on it is null. Meaningless, less than informed drivel, just as it is about all those who keep saying "we should invade XYZ and sort them out" - ask any solider who's seen real combat how he feels about other people spending the lives of his comrades so casually.

As politely as I can, you are clueless, because if you weren't you'd NEVER say such drivel - a psychologist could spend a lifetime with such people and still only have a vague understanding, because most of it cannot be conveyed in words, just emotion.

If I could plug you into my head and share it with you, you would hide in a corner, begging for me to take it away, you would be almost catatonic - and it NEVER goes away.

You want to talk about "topsy turvey" - lets talk about how parents try to instill in thier children certain behavioural characteristics - like not swearing, or stealing or any number of socially unacceptable things - how do most of them acheive this?

deterrants.

most of us then become meaningful members of society, using these baselines given to us by OUR parents to guide our lives, and further by the guidelines of the local social mores.

if parents are allowed to give WORKING DETERRANTS for thier children, and thus to enact more stringent deterrants when those do not work, why are we not allowed to enact EVEN MORE stringent when THOSE do not work?

rape still happens, sex crimes still happens, murder and a everything else still happens - why are you so willing to continue allow this?

This mindset has far more widespread consequences than just dealing with a few people spitting.

Why are you so willing to protect the lives of those who CHOOSE to perform acts that are outside acceptable society and then PAY £38,000 a year to keep them alive? Sometimes indefinitely.

Maybe society should change to a new system "sponsor a criminal" - let those who want criminals to live, PAY FOR THEM OUT OF THIER OWN POCKETS.

Lets see if we still have overstuffed prisons then, or maybe we will see the true nature of these "protect thier human rights" people - that they are happy for these people to live, JUST AS LONG AS SOMEONE ELSE PAYS FOR IT. Those with more money - after all they can spare it, right? Ask AJBTemple how he feels about being a higher rate taxpayer to pay for the criminals - He's a solicitor (or was) if I recall correctly, I'm sure he's got some interesting views on it.

We have people on in the UK alone who are almost starving and living in conditions of poverty that £38,000 a year would make thier lives and those in thier local communties a veritable paradise - yet you are so willing to rush to spend that money to protect those that would do THEM harm.

The Swiss are actually trying soemthing like this iirc. - Just without the "kill criminals" part.

I'm not saying "kill all criminals" but wilful harm against an innocent? Yeah death, every time, and there are few who've been victims of such acts that would say different.

People always have a choice, and if they CHOOSE to do that, they CHOOSE to accept whatever penalty comes after. - if you can prove they are mentally insane (and I mean properly insane not just faking it) then lock them up and chemically lobotomise them.

Edit: there are species within the animal kingdom that will deliberately kill numbers of their own to protect the larger group, even some of the more evolved animals will LEAVE BEHIND an injured or sick member of the group to protect the welfare of the rest - it's a system that has ensured the survival of thier bloodline and species for tens of millions of years.

KILL them, and use the money to save / protect / enrich the lives of the innocent.

I'm not the one with "topsy turvey" view of the world mate.

clear enough for you?

oh and before you write me off and some whacko sicko - PM eriktheviking, a person well respetced here and ask him for his personal appraisal on me.

Some things in life NEED to be eradicated from humanity - a virus is one - wilful destruction of an innocent is another.

you're not running to "protect the rights of the virus" are you rorshcach? after all - it's a biological entity too.

so YOU DO have your own levels of "what should live and what should die" - they are just different from mine.

eat meat do you?

thought so.

 

[Lons]

As I've said before I count a number of serving and retired policemen and women among our friends and there is definitely an element of corruption and cover up in the force, there always has been and probably always will, they are human after all and rub shoulders with some of the worst criminals in society who do their best to influence them. I've never been a policeman but value their opinions and it seems one of the big issues they have is when they do catch a criminal they know full well that the sentence will be minuscule compared to the offence.

I also have a number of friends and family working or retired from the prison service, my wife is a very tolerant and caring person, she has put up with me for nearly 50 years so must be, :wink: and she always said the the prisoners she encountered were sad, mad or just plain bad. Prison is not a deterrent, compared with the life some of them lead outside it's a holiday camp and it's not working. It doesn't stop them re offending and loss of liberty doesn't seem to be a problem for many. they are given a bed, food, games facilities and can lie around all day or night watching tv and playing games, it's an offender's education establishment where they share criminal information and techniques.
So what's the answer? I have no idea but the current system is far too soft and only persistent offenders are imprisoned anyway so the same faces are seen over and over again, Perhaps a military style fixed bed time and early mornings maybe dig holes and fill them in again?
The death penalty is too harsh and wrong however if someone abused or assaulted my 7 year old granddaughter I'd expect to change that opinion and might even carry out sentence personally (not hyperbole!).
There has to be something in between that effectively protects the victims and is punitive for offenders, no-one has worked it out yet.

 

[FatmanG]

I hope there is a nation wide rethink of how we live our lives, how we provide care and how we make provisions for another pandemic etc. The one thing that is clear to me though is how much we all value our NHS and it is time it is resourced properly and the people within it are treated properly. No doubt there are huge challenges to come economically, hopefully people will learn the lessons of good hygiene and will start to eat properly and exercise. I have had a good look at myself during this pandemic and made some big changes that are quite frankly well overdue and I am ashamed of myself for not making them 20 years ago.

i share you hope, but suspect the full force of commodity/ commercial culture will swing into play the moment restrictions begin to lift and people will be out buying their much-needed MaccyDs and saving their pennies for a number plate that bears a slight resemblance to their name etc.
Amid our local FB group thread where people were congratulating themselves on clapping for the NHS, i placed a pic and link to the One million claps appeal - raising money £5 at a time by a simple text - for the same carers being applauded (https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/12672 ... for-carers). Not one person commented on this, almost as if it didn't exist. Clapping and cheering is cheap - we did that and i think it's a good thing to do. but it's not enough, and i doubt people will put their money where their mouths are when things return to normal. Let's face it, we all desperately want things to go back to normal.

It will take time Chris to change peoples mindsets but it is time that people who think like us stood up to be counted and start and try to make a difference. Ive thought about this a bit and instead of us all myself included moaning about the state of things etc it is time we put in place some form of action whether it is FB groups/social media and try and gather some momentum. That word momentum showed in the labour party how things can be changed and although it ultimately failed it was because it wasnt right. I think we have all been guilty of thinking it is how it is and we cannot do anything about it. If we continue along that road then nothing will change. I know it isn't easy to achieve and I don't have the answers but im prepared to help as much as i can those of us that do have the tools to set up whats needed.