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Technically, Jacob, you are correct inasmuch as the metal gauges are pointless. Their cutting part is a wheel, which has an edge not a point. Therefore they are, indeed, pointless.
However I find mine very useful, and not at all pointless in the manner you describe them.
They also take up less space than a traditional wooden gauge. Surely an advantage in any toolbox?

Cheers,
Adam
 
Kalimna":1gnje7r8 said:
....
They also take up less space than a traditional wooden gauge. Surely an advantage in any toolbox?

Cheers,
Adam
OK so they are not entirely useless if that's what you have to use.
Fitting in a tool box - that's the first positive thing anybody has said about them!
Mind you if space really is an issue you can cut down a wooden gauge to fit. Or throw out something else. Or saw the handles of something. Inflatable handles? Bigger toolbox?
 
On the matter of marking gauges my personal favourites are Marples wooden ones with a little fettling.

My experience of working with those new to woodworking is that most beginners find it easier to use the wheel style. It would be great if new woodworkers could master the use of marking gauges in half an hour, but old craftsmen would spend many years apprenticed to master craftsmen to learn their craft.

Time served makers are that (time severed) learning their craft over a number of years. The majority of tradesmen have good hand skills but do most of their work on machines and buy as few tools as possible. Every tool needs to pay it's way to earn the maker his living.

We also have a lot of weekend woodworkers who can afford better tools than tradesmen can pay for. This is very healthy for woodworking but to two groups of woodworkers are very different. These guys possibly have the disposable income or just enjoy working with beautiful well engineered tools (and why not). We also have those who are occasional woodworkers who have the time and skill to fettle old tools, but these are skills in their own right.

The merits of traditional marking gauges are the point can be adapted (filed and honed) if required to suit the work application and users needs. Angled to suit a puller or pusher, these adaptations may not be required for those using them for general joinery or those with experience of how to handle tools. The point can be used to mark out hinges and joints with definite start and stop positions a little more tricky with a round disc marker.

The new wheel style markers are better for not following the grain, and can be easier to set to depth against the timber or against mortice chisel for dual marking gauges. They also act as a cutting gauge for across the grain, but I feel they are not as good as a good quality sharp cutting gauge for this cross grain work.

The Vertias marking gauges can be a little small in the hand for some so they may prefer the WoodRiver style with a larger stock to grip.

There are a lot of reasons people buy particular brands or styles of tools and this is one of the reasons I didn't get too involved in the original post on The a different place. I like my students and customers to try out different makes of tools after we have discussed and demonstrated the differences.

What they buy is their choice and as long as they are happy with the tool and can use it I feel my job has been done.

I do get frustrated when students have been sold tools that ultimately don't suit them. But buy cheap and buy twice comes to mind but only spend to your own budget.

Cheers Peter
 
Hello,

The best beech pin gauge ever made was made by Stanley and for some reason dropped from production. It is not always about what is useful or not, that means some tools are no longer produced. No doubt the wheel gauge made by Stanley was very effective, as they are now, just not well enough subscribed to. I'm glad that there are new makers of tools that continue to reintroduce older tools that are no longer made by their original manufacturers.

The wooden gauge I'm talking about, incidentally, had logically enough, the clamping screw act across the diagonal of the shaft, so it never suffered from seasonal movement problems,, the head always looked without any wobble and always square to the shaft, and consequently, the pin was also set into the diagonal, so it could easily be seen in use. It was such a simple and effective arrangement I cannot imagine why it was discontinued, other than Stanleys self destructive policy on making poorer and poorer tools. I saw a used one the other day on auction for 26 pounds with a couple of days still to go! Clearly some will pay for effective tools, even simple wooden ones. I think I might make a couple of nice ones like these, as sadly the one I owned went walkies. I'll sharpen the pins elliptically with a flat, though, so they cut across the grain. No one can convince me that a conical pin shape is a good one for cutting lines timber.

Mike.
 
I think Peter has this nicely rounded up. If anyone finding this thread now or in the future and is buying a gauge I can confirm a conical pin wooden gauge works very well with the grain and it's bro the cutting gauge works very well across it. If they didn't they would never of come into being and still be with us. Also the wheel versions must also work well otherwise folks would not report their success. The bigger issue is practice, practice, practice. Sadly that can't be purchased.
 
G S Haydon":2qq4wifz said:
I think Peter has this nicely rounded up. If anyone finding this thread now or in the future and is buying a gauge I can confirm a conical pin wooden gauge works very well with the grain and it's bro the cutting gauge works very well across it. If they didn't they would never of come into being and still be with us. Also the wheel versions must also work well otherwise folks would not report their success. The bigger issue is practice, practice, practice. Sadly that can't be purchased.

But doing a short course with a maker can be bought :wink: This may pay dividends either with helping you to choose the best tools for YOU or show you how to use those already purchased. This can enhance your knowledge and techniques on in leaps and bounds.

Practice is the best way to improve your skills (but only if your practising good techniques) try things out get them wrong and do them again!

Cheers Peter
 
phil.p":1olv55w9 said:
The old chippie I used to work with maintained that the best thing to use when making a gauge was a gramophone needle - although I don't know where you'd get one now. :)

I have been working on some marking gauges and was given the same advice by Ray Iles.

Cheers Peter
 
phil.p":cac61dh7 said:
The old chippie I used to work with maintained that the best thing to use when making a gauge was a gramophone needle - although I don't know where you'd get one now. :)

EBay!

Newly made, £5 to £6 per 100.
 
woodbrains":3mb8tfdq said:
Hello,

The best beech pin gauge ever made was made by Stanley and for some reason dropped from production. It is not always about what is useful or not, that means some tools are no longer produced. No doubt the wheel gauge made by Stanley was very effective, as they are now, just not well enough subscribed to. I'm glad that there are new makers of tools that continue to reintroduce older tools that are no longer made by their original manufacturers.

The wooden gauge I'm talking about, incidentally, had logically enough, the clamping screw act across the diagonal of the shaft, so it never suffered from seasonal movement problems,, the head always looked without any wobble and always square to the shaft, and consequently, the pin was also set into the diagonal, so it could easily be seen in use. It was such a simple and effective arrangement I cannot imagine why it was discontinued, other than Stanleys self destructive policy on making poorer and poorer tools. I saw a used one the other day on auction for 26 pounds with a couple of days still to go! Clearly some will pay for effective tools, even simple wooden ones. I think I might make a couple of nice ones like these, as sadly the one I owned went walkies. I'll sharpen the pins elliptically with a flat, though, so they cut across the grain. No one can convince me that a conical pin shape is a good one for cutting lines timber.

Mike.
I don't know, but I guess it was discontinued because the problems it solved were imaginary and nobody could see the point (no pun intended). I've got dozens* of gauges and non of them have these problems.
* well a dozen perhaps. I might take some photos, they are quite interesting.
"seasonal movement"? :lol:
 
Very much so Peter. I'm just about to start a new project and I'm likely to seek help to prevent too many mistakes.
 
woodbrains":3jpvc8tn said:
The wooden gauge I'm talking about, incidentally, had logically enough, the clamping screw act across the diagonal of the shaft, so it never suffered from seasonal movement problems,, the head always looked without any wobble and always square to the shaft, and consequently, the pin was also set into the diagonal, so it could easily be seen in use. It was such a simple and effective arrangement I cannot imagine why it was discontinued, other than Stanleys self destructive policy on making poorer and poorer tools. I saw a used one the other day on auction for 26 pounds with a couple of days still to go!

I assume you mean the Stanley 5061, as recommended by DC.

I got around 5-10 of these for DC a while back, quid a piece at car boots, sent down in a box.

I've got one with a knife fitted - best of all worlds IMHO. Allows a proper "walled" cut (to use Seller's jargon) to be made.

Heh! I was googing for a 5061 image, and it turns out that Sellers like this "new fangled" gauge just as much as me and DC!

https://paulsellers.com/2011/10/3478/

BugBear
 
phil.p":totsnt0y said:
Seasonal movement? I've a Marples, made from danta (which I believe was used because of its stability) that is very loose in the summer and jams solid in the winter.

I've bought many s/h marking gauges, some slack, some stuck solid, very few are truly "tight", and cannot remain so since the grain directions are perpendicular.

The 5061 design avoids all this.

BugBear
 
phil.p":379o0p9n said:
Seasonal movement? I've a Marples, made from danta (which I believe was used because of its stability) that is very loose in the summer and jams solid in the winter.
If you sand it a touch in the winter it will be loose enough. If you tighten the screw in summer it will be tight enough. Simple really. Easily fixed once and for all time! Why have you left it so long?
Non of mine stick or rock. They all have that common rounded D section shaft - non of it is flat so when tightened they press tight and won't rock. Problems could be with flat sided shafts perhaps?
I can see the logic of that Stanley but it solves a problem which doesn't actually exist in practice.
 
phil.p":1xz3zs4h said:
Humidity low - about 55%, high about 90% - same as indoors. :) Yes, it's easily fixed - two or three years of relieving it in the winter makes it looser again in the summer.
Phew sounds like a big job! Couldn't you get a local woodworker to do it for you? :lol:
 
phil.p":25f1kc6c said:
Humidity low - about 55%, high about 90% - same as indoors. :) Yes, it's easily fixed - two or three years of relieving it in the winter makes it looser again in the summer.

Yes - there's obviously no issue in the screw direction (as Jacob "Helpfully" points out) but the other direction will obviously end up loose in summer.

It probably doesn't matter, but it's annoying, and an argument in favour of the cheap 5061. At least it was cheap until Seller's acolytes pitched in.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Stanl ... 2598450d70

56 quid!!

BugBear
 

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