Continuous handrail

[deema]

I have been reading up on how they made continuous handrails. Wow, it's blowing my mind. The maths is difficult enough, although I think I've got my head around how that's done. What I cannot work out is how they shaped the curves as you go around and up a flight if stairs. The books I've read all seem to suggest that a 'thumb' plane is used to mould the shape. Does anyone know if this is correct, what is a thumb plane, how you would use it to follow the mould around?

I've also looked at the scrolls at the bottom of a banister, how to make that with the internal moulding on the inside of the scroll I just cannot work out how it's done.

Modern times I know that conc routers are used, but I just like to have a go at making one the traditional way.

Any pointers, tips or shared shaking of head in wonder would be welcome.

 

[PAC1]

There is some good design and carving detail on ThisisCarpentry website for volutes. I am trying to follow it but may have chosen a difficult handrail and oak!

 

[xy mosian]

This post:-
handrail-wreath-update-t63489.html
Might give you some clues.

xy

 

[James-1986]

You can make continuous handrail (even wreathed stuff) very simple by using a tight radii on the up/over easing's and swans necks. You only need to do a side elevation to work out the height of the components and where the joints are. It doesn't look as elegant though. I've done nearly all my wreathed work on a former so that 'works out' all the curves, you just need to mould it and cut the joints.

Geometric staircases with continuous handrail can be a challenge, and you'll find that staircaser's and people who specialise in handrail keep it a closely guarded secret :lol:

 

[bugbear]

Plenty of old-style info here:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Modern-Practica ... 0854420460

BugBear

 

[nathandavies]

A treatise on stairbuilding. wonderful book. Try to get it from the library, once you've looked at it though, you'll want to buy it.

Nathan

 

[bugbear]

A treatise on stairbuilding. wonderful book. Try to get it from the library, once you've looked at it though, you'll want to buy it.

Nathan

I've not read it, but I've seen it praised. I've got a copy of his Modern Practical Joinery and even the "introduction" to stairs in that is quite fancy.

I get the impression they were his true calling.

I've got a memory that a modern working hand railer on OLDTOOLS recommended a further book in addition to Ellis, but can't immediately find the reference. I'll look some more tomorrow.

BugBear

 

[deema]

Hi Nathan,

I have been studying the book, I think I've just about got my head around tangential layouts, but ......I could be wrong. The next stage in the learning curve is to start and mould a wreath. Rough cutting the stock to shape I can handle. Cleaning up with a spoke shave is not a problem. The area I'm trying to get my head around is the moulding. Unless it's just a case of using carving techniques, of which I'm a complete dunce, I cannot work out how they did it, the references all seem to elude to the use of planes. Studying a few old continuous hand rails, I am amazed at how consistent and uniform they are. I cannot discern any real change in form or thickness other than that which is desired to make the turns.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I've got the paperback version of this:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Simplified-Custom-Stairbuilding-Tangent-Handrailing-ebook/dp/B002SG6LF2
(that's the Kindle version) It's a terrifying/wonderful read, and no, I haven't yet tried anything in it!

He spends a lot of time on setting-out... :shock:

E.

 

[bugbear]

The area I'm trying to get my head around is the moulding. Unless it's just a case of using carving techniques, of which I'm a complete dunce, I cannot work out how they did it, the references all seem to elude to the use of planes. Studying a few old continuous hand rails, I am amazed at how consistent and uniform they are. I cannot discern any real change in form or thickness other than that which is desired to make the turns.

It certainly could be done with carving - take a look at a gothic church, all the wood and stone carved into beautiful regular curves, or a balloon back chair.

Ellis in Modern Practical Joinery (which isn't even his "stairs" book!!) dedicates 3 chapters (XIX, XX, XXI) to Stairbuilding, The Theory of Handrailing, Handrailing - Practical Work, 62 pages in all. The next chapter is also relevant, treating "Compound and curved raking mouldings".

BugBear

 

[deema]

The depth of knowledge of trigonometry, and layout that the masters if this art had of old is staggering. The math must be degree level, and mastered primarily I believe by people either very poorly educated going back a century or more, or who in the main didn't go to grammar school in more modern times. I am really intrigued with how they learnt the skills of setting out initially when it all began.

 

[bugbear]

The math must be degree level

It's only narrow trigonometry, albeit applied very intensively. It's more the quantity of maths than the difficulty of any particular step that's daunting.

e.g. once you know how to add, you know (in principle) how to add up a column of a hundred 12 digit numbers. It's not complex, it's just a lot of work.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Yes to it being a mind bender but actually it almost doesn't involve trigonometry or maths at all.
All the methods in the old books involve graphical layout - variations of the "rod" in fact. Starting with the "story rod" marked up with risings and goings worked out with dividers; no maths - the only number involved being the number of steps.

Maths can be a distraction as anybody who gets to grips with "the rod" soon finds out - quite complicated geometry easily worked out without numbers or calculations.

...I am really intrigued with how they learnt the skills of setting out initially when it all began....

On the drawing board (every woodworkers first tool) then moving out to the setting out board or the floor itself

PS plus knowledge of basic geometry and straight edges, string lines, dividers, compasses, etc

 

[Harbo]

It would be interesting (well at least to me) to research what mathematical aids were available at certain historic dates?

When I was at School and later university (early 60's) we had Trig Tables, Log Tables and slide rules - the University had an Analogue Computer, but that was a very rare beast and not generally available. No calculators apart from the "wind the handle" types.

But what did earlier generations use - what Jacob said above?
I suppose a lot was passed down through experience, the apprentice schemes and trial and error?

Rod

 

[Jacob]

"A Practical Treatise on Handrailing" George Collings, looks like a good read!
Have done simple stairs with newel posts but no I've never done a geometric staircase or a wreath but the basic idea isn't hard to grasp - basically "projections" from plans and elevations rather like unfolding a shape until it is flat.
Nearest I've got is this here http://www.owdman.co.uk/howto/howto2.htm This is a really good first exercise in roofing carpentry, and by extension, to stairs, or anything.

 

[AndyT]

I also admire the skill and understanding of the joiners who made beautiful staircases in the 18th and 19th centuries, with handrails that follow the curve around and set the whole thing off beautifully.

If anyone wants to read up on the theory and practice, and see just how complicated some of it was, you don't have to shell out for old books or reprints (not that I'd want to put anyone off doing just that).

The "Master's Library" at WK Fine Tools offers two specialist books on stairs:

The Art of Stair Building - by J. R. Perry, 1855 http://www.wkfinetools.com/wWorking...ng-Perry/1855-TheArtOfStairBuilding-Perry.asp

Common-sense Stair Building and Handrailing by Frederick T. Hodgson, 1916 http://www.wkfinetools.com/mLibrary/Hodgson/1916-CommStairBuilding/1916-CommStairBuilding.asp

To my mind, the ability to read this sort of thing is a perfect justification for having a tablet/iPad/Laptop/Kindle/e-reader of whatever type you prefer.

 

[bugbear]

Collings is also available freely:

https://archive.org/details/practicaltreatis00colluoft

Looks like stairs are the easy bit, the magic is in the handrail.

BugBear

 

[owenmcc]

I had a go at one section of a handrail turn towards the end of college. It was somewhat restricted by the lecturers not having experience of the task, but after much discussion, geometry, setting out, drawing, head scratching the line that stood out in a book came at the end of an exhaustive chapter of handrailing (I'm sorry not to remember the source) was:

[paraphrase] "The master handrailer will sculpt the rail until it is right to eye and hand"

 

[Eric The Viking]

That made me smile!

 

[Jacob]

Geometric staircases so called because skill in geometry required?
But then - just having a look at Ellis chapter XX "Theory of Handrailing" - no maths, no trigonometry and " the square cut and tangent system........readily understood by those having little practical knowledge of geometry".

That's it then, no excuses, just get stuck in! (which is more or less what Ellis says too)

I guess all the "methods" will be variations of the same theme and once you had one you would understand the others. The introductions all seem to make a point of reassuring one that it is not that difficult.

Wreathed handrails were sometimes veneered to give the impression that the whole rail up through several floors was one piece. Probably makes construction easier as details would be covered by veneer, but the veneering would be difficult.