Choice of timber for drawer sides (Completed Project)

[John15]

I will be starting shortly on the two drawers for a Black Cherry writing table I am making, and so I'm looking for advice on the species I should use for the sides and backs. I guess it should be pale to contrast with the fronts and easy to work. Any advice greatly appreciated.

John

 

[undergroundhunter]

Poplar is a popular choice, easy to work, cost effective and reasonably stable.
Having said that I've used all sorts, oak, ash, sapele, pine the list goes on.
Matt

 

[custard]

Nice project.

Will your drawer be in the classic English style with thin drawer sides (say 8 or 9mm) and drawer slips, or will they be 12mm + with the drawer bottom let directly into grooves cut in the drawer sides?

If it's the latter then Poplar is fine. But if you're going for thinner sides then they should be dead on quarter sawn, with Oak or Mahogany being the traditional choice, but Rippled Sycamore is currently popular as it shows off the dovetails nicely and adds a touch of bling that's not too in your face. If you do use Poplar it may have a greenish tinge that'll clash with Cherry, if so get it to final thickness and leave it in the sun for a few hours, the green colour disappears like magic in UV light.

In any event, no furniture component puts a greater premium on stability than drawer sides. If you're aiming for top quality then the drawer sides should be the first thing you make, kept in stick in the workshop for a couple of weeks or longer, and worked slowly down to final dimension.

Good luck!

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

I've always had good results with hard maple for drawer sides. Looks good with cherry; mahogany looks blooming awful TBH, though fine in other respects. Maple has excellent wear resistance, actually waxes itself in use. I have a set of kitchen cabinets in constant use for over a 12 years, with maple drawer sides, (about 3/8 in thick) and oak drawer fronts. About 5 1/2 in deep and longer than standard cabs, maybe 25 inches. Overloaded with kitchen gubbins. No signs of wear, piston fit still good and smother running than metal drawer slides. TBH not maintained as often as should be with wax, so a bit abused in fact. Can't fault maple.

As an aside, I'd like Custard's (and others) opinion about what I see as a bit of a myth. It is common (English?) wisdom to use fully quarter sawn stock for the sides. I don't see why, unless the fronts are fully quarter sawn too, and both timber species have similar shrinkage characteristics. For example, if the fronts are crown cut and have medium movement in service then it is logical to make the sides with timber of a similar character. It is dissimilar shrinkage rates that will cause problems such as splitting or joinery failure.

Mike.

 

[John15]

Many thanks guys for your help.
I'm currently making practice joints - 10 so far and it's encouraging to see the gradual improvement I'm achieving. I'm doing them in 20mm Cherry and 10mm Oak with a groove for the bottom. Increasing the sides to 12mm for Poplar won't be a problem.
Do you think 20mm is OK for the fronts or should it be a bit thinner? The drawers will be 350mm wide.

John

 

[Jacob]

Almost any timber will do, including better quality redwood.
10 mm is a more common side thickness.
Grooves are not good - slips are better - the groove weakens the side at the load nearing point and the slip adds to the wearing surface. You only find slots/grooves in cheapest or very light weight use.

 

[custard]

It is common (English?) wisdom to use fully quarter sawn stock for the sides. I don't see why, unless the fronts are fully quarter sawn too, and both timber species have similar shrinkage characteristics. For example, if the fronts are crown cut and have medium movement in service then it is logical to make the sides with timber of a similar character. It is dissimilar shrinkage rates that will cause problems such as splitting or joinery failure.

There are two questions here.

Firstly, is mixing crown cut drawer fronts with quarter sawn drawer sides bad practise because of differential shrinkage? The bible for British hardwoods is the HMSO publication, "Handbook of Hardwoods", they say that when transitioning from 90% to 60% humidity (a fairly typical UK domestic range) European Oak will shrink by 2.5% tangentially and 1.5% radially, so across a 100mm wide drawer side/front joint the maximum differential shrinkage is 1mm. We know Oak (and almost all other timbers) can easily absorb that differential because we see far greater than that in most mortice and tenon joints, where cross grain movement is fully arrested by being glued into a long grain component.

The second question is why is quarter sawn timber preferred for drawer sides? The answer is that in a piston fit drawer any movement in the drawer side risks the drawer sticking, and because the least movement occurs with quarter sawn timbers that's the logical choice to use.

I'm convinced by that argument, as were generations of British craftsmen before me, so I'll continue to use crown cut drawer fronts for maximum visual impact together with quarter sawn drawer sides for maximum stability. But hey, that's just my choice, if someone else wants to make their drawers differently then that's their call!

Good luck!

 

[dzj]

If the sides were 8 or 9mm and flat sawn, would they not be prone to warping/ cupping?
I always thought that was the reason they went for QS.
For thicker than 12mm, you could go either way.

 

[woodbrains]

If the sides were 8 or 9mm and flat sawn, would they not be prone to warping/ cupping?
I always thought that was the reason they went for QS.
For thicker than 12mm, you could go either way.

Hello,

Not really. It is fairly irrelevant as to the thickness or the timber, 2 inch thick flat sawn boards will and do cup, so making the drawer sides thicker will not prevent cupping. In fact the thinner sides are less likely to, simply because the dovetails have an easier job restraining the movement that might occur. The force exerted by a thinner board is less, but the number of dovetails holding it flat is the same. Thin sides with drawer slips look much more elegant and the drawer slips give a wide bearing surface for the drawer to run on and a deep groove for the drawer bottom to sit in.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Quarter sawn for appearance only. No particular function - but yes if "piston fit" it might be a good idea - but you'd have other problems anyway - changes in humidity being no. 1.
Things could be piston fit when new - but later on they'd most likely either stick or be looser.

 

[dzj]

Hello,

Not really. It is fairly irrelevant as to the thickness or the timber, 2 inch thick flat sawn boards will and do cup, so making the drawer sides thicker will not prevent cupping. In fact the thinner sides are less likely to, simply because the dovetails have an easier job restraining the movement that might occur. The force exerted by a thinner board is less, but the number of dovetails holding it flat is the same. Thin sides with drawer slips look much more elegant and the drawer slips give a wide bearing surface for the drawer to run on and a deep groove for the drawer bottom to sit in.

Mike.

In my experience, flat sawn, thin stock, often "potato-chips" and this creates bigger problems than seasonal expansion.
Particularly as tails are cut in the drawer sides and they can't restrain such movement.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Not really. It is fairly irrelevant as to the thickness or the timber, 2 inch thick flat sawn boards will and do cup, so making the drawer sides thicker will not prevent cupping. In fact the thinner sides are less likely to, simply because the dovetails have an easier job restraining the movement that might occur. The force exerted by a thinner board is less, but the number of dovetails holding it flat is the same. Thin sides with drawer slips look much more elegant and the drawer slips give a wide bearing surface for the drawer to run on and a deep groove for the drawer bottom to sit in.

Mike.

In my experience, flat sawn, thin stock, often "potato-chips" and this creates bigger problems than seasonal expansion.
Particularly as tails are cut in the drawer sides and they can't restrain such movement.

Hello,

Don't take this as argumentative, I'm just saying. Dovetails have lots and lots of side grain to side grain glueing area, they will absolutely resist any tendency for drawer sides to cup. The thinner the stock, the less force the cupping can exert on the joints. If resawing stock for drawer sides, you must put them in stick to stablise for a while before using, so any tendancy to cup will have reduced to a minimum, then in use, the joinery will be strong enough to hold it this way. This applies to quarter sawn stock, just the same, as Custard states above. I have made drawer sides from flat sawn stock for decades, without any problems whatsoever.

Mike.

 

[dzj]

Well, perhaps not lots and lots.
My view is that there's no point introducing unnecessary stress in the joints when you can
do away with it by going for QS stock.
For thicker sides FS is OK.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

As an aside, I'd like Custard's (and others) opinion about what I see as a bit of a myth. It is common (English?) wisdom to use fully quarter sawn stock for the sides. I don't see why, unless the fronts are fully quarter sawn too, and both timber species have similar shrinkage characteristics. For example, if the fronts are crown cut and have medium movement in service then it is logical to make the sides with timber of a similar character. It is dissimilar shrinkage rates that will cause problems such as splitting or joinery failure. Mike.

Of course, one of the 'classic' combinations is radially cut European oak sides and backs accompanying tangentially sawn South American mahogany, Cuban for example.

It so happens the typical shrinkage/expansion factors for quarter sawn oak and tangentially sawn mahogany are almost the same, viz: (radial) oak 5.3%, and (tangential) mahogany, 5.1%. Perhaps the old makers had a shrewd idea of that having observed the cross grain movement of both over a period of time - years perhaps. That's a guess on my part, but I suppose it's possible empirically observed and reliable data on wood movement characteristics across a wide range of species was available. Slainte.

 

[John15]

Just an update on the drawers. I chose 12mm oak in the end with a 5mm wide X 4mm deep slot for the bottom. They turned out reasonably well for my first attempt, especially the half blinds.

I fitted the guides this morning and the drawers are just a little tight so a smidgen to take off. I haven't fitted the stops yet - is a cleat fitted to the runners OK?

John

 

[dzj]

Traditionally the stops are fitted behind the drawer front attached to the bottom drawer rail.

 

[custard]

There's a co-incidence. I'm also making Cherry drawer fronts with Oak drawer sides at the moment. I need to make four drawers for this,

It's not due for delivery until Christmas but it's been hanging around the workshop for weeks now while I've done other jobs, so I'm getting a bit fed up with it and want it out the door, consequently I'm having a drawer making and fitting session!

Here's the largest drawer,

This photo answers your question about drawer stops, they're set in just behind the drawer front, raised about 3mm above the rail. I've seen them glued or nailed on but that's a bit tacky, there should be shallow mortices in the rail and the stops sit in those with an overhanging front lip. You plane the lip back, shaving by shaving, until the drawer close position is precisely where you want it.

This shows the construction in more detail, 8mm quarter sawn Oak sides with drawer slips. The Cedar of Lebanon drawer bottom is free to expand and contract, it'll be held by a slotted brass screw in the centre but that's not done yet,

 

[custard]

Looks like you're doing a very tidy job with your desk John. If I've read your post right you're fairly early on in your woodworking career (my apologies if you've actually already won half a dozen Guild Marks), so that's pretty impressive work.

=D>

One thing you might want to think about for your next project. Once the finish is applied you may find there's some "grain clash" around the drawers and it all looks a bit "busy", you could try getting all the components out of the same board so the grain flows seamlessly across the front. But taken in the round you've done a superb job. Congratulations!

 

[Jacob]

......
This shows the construction in more detail, 8mm quarter sawn Oak sides with drawer slips. The Cedar of Lebanon drawer bottom is free to expand and contract, it'll be held by a slotted brass screw in the centre but that's not done yet,

I don't rate the screw idea. I think it's just one of those ideas which got slipped into a book by some hack and has been taken as gospel ever since. There's a lot of them about! It's certainly not traditional.
Basically it doesn't work - if the drawer is the slightest bit loaded the bottom wont slide past the screw it'll jam tight and pull out at the front instead. Or worse - the back will split if the bottom shrinks back in.
IMHO best way is to have the bottom thick enough to bear the weight without the need to fix to the back at all, and fix it in the front slot with a dab of glue.

 

[custard]

......
This shows the construction in more detail, 8mm quarter sawn Oak sides with drawer slips. The Cedar of Lebanon drawer bottom is free to expand and contract, it'll be held by a slotted brass screw in the centre but that's not done yet,

I don't rate the screw idea. I think it's just one of those ideas which got slipped into a book by some hack and has been taken as gospel ever since. There's a lot of them about! It's certainly not traditional.
Basically it doesn't work - if the drawer is the slightest bit loaded the bottom wont slide past the screw it'll jam tight and pull out at the front instead. Or worse - the back will split if the bottom shrinks back in.
IMHO best way is to have the bottom thick enough to bear the weight without the need to fix to the back at all, and fix it in the front slot with a dab of glue.

The screw provides a point of support and actually prevents the bottom sagging as there's nothing holding it up at the back because the grooves are only on the sides and front. I've made hundreds of drawers this way without problems. Incidentally, I've seen it on Georgian drawers and in Victorian instruction books so it's certainly not a new idea. But hey, they're your drawers so you use whatever method you like.