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workshopted

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so have the panel decided sash pocket chisels were for maintenance rather than manufacture? the pockets I've got the parting groove runs down the middle but the ends are definitely chiselled. I'll try and remember not to forget to take a snap!
In my opinion, they are used for both.
 

Jacob

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so have the panel decided sash pocket chisels were for maintenance rather than manufacture? the pockets I've got the parting groove runs down the middle but the ends are definitely chiselled. I'll try and remember not to forget to take a snap!
I've seen pockets in the middle but never taken one out so they are a mystery to me.
 

workshopted

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Jacob

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Thats interesting. Had a quick glance
It is necessary to make both transverse and longitudinal cuts in a position that cannot be reached with general tools. A special chisel – the sash pocket chisel – was developed for this job, though the exact way it was intended to be used is still a matter of speculation. The basic use was to cut the fibres at the end of the pocket that could not be reached by a saw but it could also have been used for making the longitudinal cut at the side of the pocket.
She's wrong there it's easy to cut the pockets with a saw I've done hundreds. It's done on the bench before the case is built.
But all on the bottom sash side.
Maybe the chisel is for the middle-of-stile pockets or the pockets in inside linings. Both are uncommon and I can''t see much point in them either.
 
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JobandKnock

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the pockets I've got the parting groove runs down the middle but the ends are definitely chiselled. I'll try and remember not to forget to take a snap!
7 or 8 years ago we did a refurb job on 88 vertical sliding sashes in a Victorian "office block". It was necessary to take out the sash pocket covers on about a third of them so we could replace the sash cords. TBH the woodwork in the openings was generally pretty rough, but at the time I just put that down to age and weather (and 3 storeys up on scaffolding in the middle of January I wasn't going to be hanging about to do a detailed examination). I used a shsrpened cat's paw pry bar and a thin sash saw (mainly used to saw out painted sash frames) to do the job

We also needed to replace a number of the covers where the originals got split getting them out (or in some cases were already split). This seemed often enough to be because the gaps around them were filled with linseed oil putty which had set rock hard over time.

I did notice that the more modern windows (replacements) had the sash pockets completely in the lower sash track, as the drawing below shows:

1631610119290.png

whilst older windows had the sash pockets across both tracks. I have made a few of the modern type windows (not many) - the old fellah who showed me how to used an Arcoy rebate saw attachment and an electric drill to make most of the saw cuts (being a steel saw the kerf is quite fine) finishing with a beading saw before splitting the pocket covers out with a thin bevel edge chisel from the side. No sash pocket chisel. This seems To be the same sort if process Jacob refers to.

Keeping the pocket to one of the tracks certainly improves storm performance and looks better (less putty or filler requiredbefore painting) even if it does mean your midfeathers need to be a tad shorter.

BTW, the drawing has a rather obvious rot point where the outside lining meets the cill. I was frequently told it is better to cut back (scallop) the bottom corner of the outside lining, if you can, so that water doesn't get trapped behind the lining snd start rot. But then, I"d say that modern paints are a much greater rot initiator than the joinery details
 
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Jacob

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here's some pics of that sash pocket. it's definitely neatly chiseled out. I'm not quite sure how the sides dobe were tbh. it looks a bit smooth to be sawn.
Interesting thanks for that! I'm still mystified as to quite how they did it and why. Yes you can see the chisel marks of a full width chisel. :unsure:
 

toolsntat

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It's all great saying that a saw can be used to make all the pocket cuts but do you not end up with 2 saw kerfs of gap on the best face ?
Back cuts are ok with the saw but face cuts benefit from the slicing of the pocket chisel, dipped in water beforehand to help reform any out of place fibres.

Cheers Andy
 

Jacob

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It's all great saying that a saw can be used to make all the pocket cuts but do you not end up with 2 saw kerfs of gap on the best face ?
Yes but behind the bottom sash when it's closed and hardly noticeable when it's open.
Back cuts are ok with the saw but face cuts benefit from the slicing of the pocket chisel, dipped in water beforehand to help reform any out of place fibres.
I've never seen this done and I don't see how even a thin chisel cut could produce a thinner kerf, but it's an idea! The chisel cuts on jonnyb's are from the back and don't look particularly tidy, though they are full width of the pocket.
Come to think I don't see how you could easily hammer a 2"wide chisel, however thin, 1/2" into a piece of wood.
 
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johnnyb

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having the parting bead in the middle would help stop the pocket falling out. I can snap the rear of the pulley stiles tomorrow.
 

Jacob

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having the parting bead in the middle would help stop the pocket falling out. I can snap the rear of the pulley stiles tomorrow.
What could be really good would be an autopsy on the stile and pocket together on the bench, strip paint have close look etc. Should be possible to work out exactly how they did it! Even work out why?
 

workshopted

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And if you're replacing sash cords you're gonna need a Mouse and a piece of string.:love:
 

workshopted

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This post is partly a bit of fun and partly good info for beginners.
I would like to know what vintage Chisel brands everyone would rank as the best.
You can say the best chisel you have used or you can rank them, the choice is yours.
I don`t have enough experience with old chisels yet to make a valid contribution.

Have fun.
Hi, Richie, can you see the trouble your post has caused?:love::love::love::ROFLMAO::LOL:
 

workshopted

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and know how to thread it "cat's cradle" fashion; quicker easier and saves on sash chord.
Hi, Jacob, your mention of cats cradle n string bring back fond memories of my childhood days:love:. Did you ever make telephone's out of empty tin cans and string?
 

Jacob

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Hi, Jacob, your mention of cats cradle n string bring back fond memories of my childhood days:love:. Did you ever make telephone's out of empty tin cans and string?
Certainly did! Treacle tins. Also with hosepipe from room to room. Leave a whistle plugged in so you know when someones trying to call you. In fact a good idea might fix one up in this place.
 

workshopted

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Certainly did! Treacle tins. Also with hosepipe from room to room. Leave a whistle plugged in so you know when someones trying to call you. In fact a good idea might fix one up in this place.
"Whistle While You Work" And, Hose While You Pose. :love: :LOL: :love: :LOL: :love:
 
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