Bench Morticer Advice

[monkeybiter]

I'm in the market for a morticer, I'm buying it as a gift from my wife to me for Christmas.
The favourite was this one http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-hobby-series-aw16bmst2-bench-morticer
at £260 from Axy, but now Rutlands have thrown a spanner in the works with this offer http://www.rutlands.co.uk/sp+bench-morticer-with-sliding-table+DK2096
now at £170.
Anyone here had experience of the Rutlands machine [as previously posted the reviews are a little too positive] or spotted a significant deciding factor that I have missed?

Thanks for any help/info/guidance.

 

[flh801978]

The rutlands one looks like the same castings
different handle
different sliding table wheel changed to single lever

I had the axminster one bought it for a project. didnt use it for a while other than to test the motor

When I did come to use it it was useless on oak ( 1/2" chisel) very hard work flexing from all areas
I put it to one side and never used it again
Bought a domino machine (500) so impressed bought the 700 too
never looked back and sold the mortiser eventually at a huge loss for a machine that had had 10 mins use

 

[AJB Temple]

There are many ways to cut mortices, with varying degrees of manual labour versus had drill, drill press, router, light duty morticing machine, proper morticing machine that can deal with hardwood, plunge saw ...and so on.

My view is you need to cut a LOT of mortices to justify a morticing machine. Drill press plus sharp chisel makes short work of most things. The cheapish ones I have used have been hopeless in oak, mahogany and maple.

However, Christmas presents are always good!

 

[RobinBHM]

Many years ago, I bought a multico bench morticer. A solid machine, no deflection it cut very well up to 1/2". Sadly it got stolen and as multico no longer existed, I bought another make, hopeless it had twin columns which allowed twist.

 

[Eric The Viking]

The Rutlands one has a smaller motor, I think (current Axy one seems to be 0.75HP approx.) Otherwise the Rutlands one seems to be the older Axy model.

If so, I have one of the older ones; I like it.

I haven't yet tried it in tough oak, but in Idigbo and softwood it's been fine up to about 1/2" mortices. I like the add-ons - the column raiser block and the drill chuck. They'd probably fit the Rutlands model.

For me the only drawback would be where it's bought from...

E.

 

[blackrodd]

I've got an even older APT morticer from when they were still in Axminster near the car park.
on previous discussions, The problems seem to be in not leaving enough gap between the auger and chisel,
buying the cheaper chisels, and also trying to take out a big initial "bite" and getting the chisel stuck on the first plunge.
Also some rarely sharpen their chisels enough, or even buy the kit!
Having worked in a door factory, I've chopped a few mortice's in my time, and must say unless you buy a decent cast jobbie for an arm and a leg, Multico, or similar these cheaper one's will do the job adequately, Just go along nice and steady! but if you do need performance, as a professional, say, then get the best you can afford.
Regards Rodders

 

[Eric The Viking]

Wot 'ee said!

And you don't need to use a 1/2" chisel for a 1/2" mortice, necessarily. One of the nice things about a two-axis table is that you can take small bites and 'creep up on' the dimensions you want with some accuracy. From memory, the in-out axis adjustment is 1.5mm per revolution of the knob, which is plenty accurate enough. A story stick is your friend, too (for mortice lateral position, as well as distance along a rail or stile).

Be prepared to set it up carefully: shimming* the column base so that the chisel is dead square to the base of the table, shimming the back fence for the same reason (I think Axminster modded the design of theirs as it was a problem they fixed), and carefully tweaking the gib strips to get easy movement without play.

These aren't expensive tools: expect a rough finish in places, but I found, after careful fettling, I could get really nice results with mine. I have a big job for it in the new year, making big internal door(s) for the house. I'm confident it will do the job.

E. (who is a hobbyist)

PS: I really recommend the sharpening kits that various people sell - flat diamond plate and honing "countersink-style" reamers. For the inside cone of the chisels use Trefolex or similar as a cutting paste (not an abrasive!).

*I use slivers from drinks cans and kitchen foil for the micro adjustments.

 

[custard]

Buying either of those cheap machines is money down the toilet.

To begin with decent tooling will cost you about £60 for each size of chisel/auger, plus you'll need the kit to sharpen the chisel and the auger. So you're probably looking at £200 of tooling just to have a fairly basic morticing capability. It just seems a bit odd to be spending more on tooling than on the machine itself.

I've never used either of those particular machines, but I've come across plenty of cheap, hobbyist tat and it's always an exercise in frustration and shoddy results. The chisel won't be perpendicular to the bed, the bed won't move in a straight axis, the clamp won't be man enough to stop the chisel lifting the workpiece, the auger chuck won't be concentric to the spindle collar, the column will flex, and there'll be loads of run out. You'll do your best to shim the thing into shape, but when you've got it half right in one position it'll then be out at the other end of the mortice.

If you're cutting lots of mortices then put your hand in your pocket and get a decent morticer...or build a jig and do 'em with your router. And if you're not cutting many mortices then do it with a chisel and mallet...I promise you that after two or three you'll be way quicker and more accurate than struggling with a Chinese toy morticer.

Good luck.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I've never used either of those particular machines, but I've come across plenty of cheap, hobbyist tat and it's always an exercise in frustration and shoddy results. The chisel won't be perpendicular to the bed, the bed won't move in a straight axis, the clamp won't be man enough to stop the chisel lifting the workpiece, the auger chuck won't be concentric to the spindle collar, the column will flex, and there'll be loads of run out. You'll do your best to shim the thing into shape, but when you've got it half right in one position it'll then be out at the other end of the mortice.

I don't want to pick a fight, but I've had good results with mine.

Of course you need to fettle it, and of course you need sharp tooling, and to use it properly, but it certainly works OK.

And, given it was about half the cost of a Festool router, and it doubles as a pillar drill (of sorts) I think it's good value.

You haven't used one, you say...

E.

PS: Glueing sandpaper to the movable clamp means it grips anything well, easy!

 

[monkeybiter]

Thanks for all the advice, varied views and experience which is what this forum is good at.
I've made my decision which, right or wrong, was better informed than before; an order has been placed with Axminster.

There seemed to be a bit of a divide in opinions which seems to me to be based on whether the user is professional or amateur. Perhaps I should have stated that I am definitely an amateur but also that I have cut lots of mortices both by elbow power and using a morticing attachment on my pillar drill.

Thanks again chaps and don't fall out.

 

[blackrodd]

Thanks for all the advice, varied views and experience which is what this forum is good at.
I've made my decision which, right or wrong, was better informed than before; an order has been placed with Axminster.

There seemed to be a bit of a divide in opinions which seems to me to be based on whether the user is professional or amateur. Perhaps I should have stated that I am definitely an amateur but also that I have cut lots of mortices both by elbow power and using a morticing attachment on my pillar drill.

Thanks again chaps and don't fall out.

I'm afraid we've all had some varying experiences with these "cheaper" models of machinery.
Perhaps you could record you're "out the box" experience with this morticer buy.
I, for one would be very interested in you're purchase, etc, etc.
Regards Rodders

 

[monkeybiter]

I'll try to remember to do that Rodders, but bear in mind it will probably be in the last week of December at the earliest, when it will officially become mine. And I don't like to play with dangerous machinery until I'm suitably intoxicated [anaesthetic benefits etc.] so I might take a day or two to collect my thoughts.. :-({|= or =D>

 

[Eric The Viking]

You might be right. I once brushed the back of my hand past the pointy end of the morticer chisel. Anaesthetic (or a gag) would have been handy at that point.

Don't forget: a rectangle of sandpaper glued to the clamp with Evo-stik (impact adhesive).

Happy perforations!

 

[Hemsby]

A post of mine on the Dakota.

rutlands-dakota-mortice-machine-modifications-t80388.html

My review on the Rutlands website was the 3* one

 

[JonnyW]

Hi Mike. I've just posted a reply to Eric's thread from June about this same machine.

Like you, I've just placed an order with Axminster, and like you I won't get to play with until I've helped unpack the kid's santa presents.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/axminster-bench-morticer-220-quid-t89768.html

As I said in Eric's post, it was between the Charnwood W316 and the Axi. But on inspection (and downloading their manuals), they are both exactly the same machines.

I'm sure if you take small nibbles at a time, it'll eat through oak. For me, I'm pretty sure it'll do what I ask it to do.

It can pack down to quite a small size (just lock it in the down position - the wheel and stops can be taken off it quite easily), so I'm intending on placing it inside a wheeled unit under my bench.

One reviewer on Axminster speaks about the difficulty finding 5/8ths bits for the thing - I don't know where he was shopping or if he'd heard of the internet, but I found bits no problem.

Also, if you go on to Charnwood's site or Poolewood, they still sell the collet or collar that will increase the shank size to 13/16ths http://www.poolewood.co.uk/acatalog/Charnwood-W316-and-W325-Morticers.html. Like I said, they are exactly the same machines, so I'm sure it'll fit no probs.

So currently I'm more worried about getting the kid's presents out of that bloody boxes that the manufacturers don't want them to come out of, than if this mortise is a waste of money.

We should do a new year review!

Once I've sobered up.

Regards

Jonny

 

[monkeybiter]

Thanks Jonny, just looked at your link - the 316 does look to be the same as the Axy but with only a 375W motor [like the Rutlands too] whereas the Axy has a 550W, so I don't feel too bad that it's cheaper!
Re. the chisel shank size, the Axy ad. states it is sleeved to 3/4" [the size I already use] again the same as the 316.

 

[JonnyW]

Yep true. The Axi has a more powerful motor. I never even noticed that!!

Even better.

Did you buy the column block?

Jonny

 

[monkeybiter]

Yes, and a conical sharpener, I'll use existing methods to hone the outer surfaces.

 

[custard]

Yes, and a conical sharpener, I'll use existing methods to hone the outer surfaces.

Good luck with your new morticer, I hope it performs well for you. Don't skimp on tooling, better less and better tooling than more and cheaper tooling. Remember English pattern tooling has a less acute chisel angle than Japanese pattern so requires different cones if you want to preserve the original angles.

 

[monkeybiter]

Good luck with your new morticer, I hope it performs well for you.

Thanks for that custard, I'm glad that you understand my needs will be different to yours. Also my reasons for buying will probably be different too, I think I will get more enjoyment from using the morticer than from chopping out, and I need to use every trick in the book to motivate my lethargic self into the workshop.

English pattern tooling has a less acute chisel angle than Japanese pattern

Thanks again, I'll bear that in mind.