Ashley Isle's Chisels - So Dissapointed

[Lons]

No-one is going to get anywhere with this thread so it's utterly pointless apart from entertainment value. Any damage done to AI is done though I doubt they'll lose any sleep.
It seems that there was no problem returning the items for refund so maybe AI should be complimented for acting as they should.

I had a great attitude to any of my customers who had unreasonable expectations and just told them to go elsewhere. :lol:

Bob

 

[Petey83]

So you post two links that show two sets of chisels that are round 50% cheaper than the AI set and thats your version of competition........ being 50% more expensive than the next brand is not really being competitive is it if you take it in its purist form.

Also iv'e not mentioned bespoke shoes or chisels - bespoke means something individually designed and hand made to a customers wishes, everything I buy is off the shelf. In terms of the knives - they are not fine Japanese knives at all - they are very workman like actually but they just have a good level of fit and finish.

https://cuttingedgeknives.co.uk/brands/ ... /yuki#yuki (highly recommend the company that import these by the way)

The knives are hand forged from a more expensive steel using a more complicated lamination process in a country with a comparable economy and standard of living and are then transported halfway around the world and can still be sold for £150 with the retailer making a profit.... clearly not a "fine Japanese Knife" just an extremely well made product...

i am now being really pedantic but I am just trying to highlight you are reading my words but not really understanding what I am saying. I am sorry you think I have some how damaged AI's standing in the world but I think you are over reacting, Clifton took a bruising years ago but are still there and I quite fancy one of their planes one day.... Veritas and Lie Nielsen have taken bad reviews before now and still do just fine.... Iv'e seen a number of threads (some on this very forum) abut how its wrong to buy products made in China that are copies of other products yet Quangseng still seem to sell - I even own a couple of their planes which i rather like......

 

[AJB Temple]

As a dispassionate observer

This was a present for Pete and he said he felt disappointed. He is entitled to his feelings and no doubt the giver is disappointed as well.
If the chisels are hand made they should take enough pride to grind them square. I grind my chisels square recuse that is how I like them. Pete is entitled to feel the same.
Just because we can always grind things perfectly well on this forum, has no effect on whether we find a delivery disappointing or whether we should be expected to sort out a manufacturing of QC error.
Whilst chisels work fine if not square, the fact that they are not is indicative of poor quality control.
There is minimal chance that this thread has done any damage to AI. And if it has, they need to learn a quality control message.
Classic Hand Tools acted with complete integrity very promptly. That is my experience of them as well: they are excellent.
We should encourage members to post their honest experiences and not belittle them when they do IMO.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Well if it's any consolation to those worried about the negative effect of this thread on Ashley Isles, I would just add that this thread has really made me want some of their chisels, I have a gouge by them and its fantastic. I already have too many chisels and they have too live in a harsh environment at the dock and I have to make tool purchases based on what will make me money (the chisels I have work just fine) so I probably won't get any yet but when I retire (still 10-15 years away) I want a set of their carving gouges and a couple of Clifton planes to make violins with.
Paddy

 

[deema]

There are a number of really good points that have been raised.

There are a number of people for whom a truly square edge is really beneficial and will enhance their initial purchase experience. These are the people who use some form of jig to sharpen their chisels. An out of square chisel will require them to spend a lot longer initially getting the blade square than could be the case. I suspect that this applies to a large number of people and a market segment that should be seriously considered.

The chisel will not perform any worse or better with a slight chamfer, indeed there is an argument that is will shear the wood and cut slightly better. A marketing opportunity to extol these virtues would certainly benefit AI along with the focus on truly hand made.

Thinking about the manufacturing process, time is money. A simply jig would I'm certain would both speed up the grinding process reducing cost, increasing profit whilst maintaining the 'hand made' allure would ensure that the end of the chisel was square, and that the grind angle was correct as 'specified' in their material.

Lastly the thread will have benefited I'm sure AI as it has been read and contributed to, there is very little bad publicity, other than no publicity. The fact that a customer is disappointed is something that has got the AI name a lot of attention. We will each draw our own conclusions on what is right or wrong with what has been highlighted. As a manufacturer, listening a responding to market trends and expectations is what keeps the business alive.

 

[iNewbie]

I've used Classic Hand Tools. They're very good. Whether he's spent another £80 is irrelevant. They feel he had a justifiable case to return those goods. Adjusting to a woodworkers normal scope obviously isn't in their sales!

Its your opinion his words are harsh, you certainly aren't speaking for me and I doubt countless others. I don't want to state the obvious but its a public forum (within the boundaries of the owners consent) and people will say things other many may not agree with. Me, I'd agree to disagree and move on - as I will be, now.

The customer exercised his right to return goods bought by mail order. The seller acted correctly - and indeed, went above and beyond. We've no idea what advice the seller may or may not have offered the customer, and it's none of our business anyway.

However, the customer then left a negative post on a public forum about a certain manufacturer's product without - as far as I can tell - first contacting them for advice or giving them any opportunity to do anything about the situation. Thus, this thread will come up in the future when someone seeks information about AI chisels, painting them in a negative light, without AI having had the chance to do anything about it. That's a bit out of order, in my view, so I'm standing up for AI. I use some of their chisels, and have absolutely no problem with them.

err, we do have some idea. The seller offered him several options... He exercised his own choice in the matter.

"These cost £133 which is not cheap so its fair to expect a certain level of finish surely.... as mentioned even the guys at classic hand tools said they did not look right and gave me several options on how to proceed... the reason I chose not to send them back to AI to be re-ground was mainly due to the lack of solid turn around time."

Its none of our business (to you) yet you keep on about how he should have conducted himself on his purchase.

Whether you have had a happy experience with AI doesn't diminish his disappointment. His experience hasn't been yours. Its not the end of the world and as far as damage done to AI (its like he's eaten a baby or summat) I doubt its done any at all. Why? Because theres far more people who have had a better experience with AI. i'd stop panicking if I were you. Get some tin foil on your walls and ceiling and check the windows for Black Helicopters flying above. Any minute now... :roll:

 

[D_W]

If you were going to compare a knife to those chisels, it would be a 30 pound forged knife made out of solid steel.

I don't know how lucky you are buying your knives, there's a chance that they're not hand forged at all as quite a lot of the knives made in japan are rikizai (prelaminated material sold to smiths).

There are some makers who absolutely do everything by hand, and a lot who don't. Someone living in Tokyo warned me to check with him if I wanted a hand forged knife, but being the kind of guy who's totally happy with a chisel where I only need to regrind the bevel, I'm perfectly happy with rikizai knives that cost half as much as yours. Actually, quite tickled with them.

The thing I'm at a loss about here is that 600 quid shoes are comparable to 25 quid chisels, but 15-20 quid chisels are not comparable to 25 quid chisels. Those being your comparisons, not mine. Look to the finish level on blue spruce chisels if you want something compared to those. I don't favor the construction of those chisels, but the finish level applied to them is quite good. So much so that I'd say they might well suit someone who would wear 600 quid shoes and maybe not do quite so much woodworking.

The comparison that would be more accurate to AI chisels would be Stubai or Hirsch chisels. I have just prepared a set of stubai chisels, and i don't believe all of them were perfectly square, either. They are nice otherwise, to me, because not only will I grind a bevel if I don't like it, I will actually grind the lands, too. I only wear $300 shoes, though. Sometimes guys at my level still have to make things the way we like them, rather than buying them in perfect shape. Enough joking, though. The stubai chisels work well for a handle gripper because they don't have huge thick cross sections like the construction chisel types (heavy firmers or socket chisels), and if I don't like the lands, I'll make them so that I like them.

It may horrify some folks, but I've gotten garish $7 chisels and ground the lands to exactly what I wanted, and i'm very happy with them. They need to be sharpened often, but we learn to do that quite quickly after a while.

And one last comment - I mentioned buying three kiyotada chisels earlier. They are quite possibly the finest chisels that have ever been made if you can tolerate japanese chisels, as long as they are from a smith named Shimanura (san for the japanophiles). Two of them, I got used, so I can't comment on their bevels. The third I bought new. It was $220, and I was very lucky to find it for that - the market price for shimamura's stuff is about $600 per chisel from what I hear. The bevel was not perfect on it, the rest of the finish is divine. Someone like me should never have a tool so nice - really, my skill level will never justify anything remotely close, but someone gave me a chance to try the best chisels ever made -two people - and I'm down with that. But the bevel on the new one that I got still needed to be set to what I wanted. And if I recall correctly, I dry ground it - something that would absolutely horrify some.

My AIs definitely aren't square, either, but I could care less - the rest of the chisel is no less than spectacular for the price. I wouldn't trade them even up for the fat LN construction style chisels I used to have.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

No, Petey, I posted two links that showed chisels priced in the £20 to £30 each bracket, which is directly comparable to the AIs - indeed, more in some instances. The AIs are handmade, the Marples and Stanleys are (I presume) machine made.

With respect, I'm not really sure you're trying to understand what we're trying to tell you. Ashley Iles make very good cabinetmaker's bench chisels for a price comparable with good quality mass-produced chisels. You posted a thread with a title that suggested AIs product was disappointing, but the reason you give is just a trivial one, which any woodworker should be easily able to resolve for themselves. That's rather unfair on Ashley Iles, especially as they haven't (I presume) had any chance to comment, advise or whatever before the thread was posted.

Look, I really didn't want this argument, but I respect Ashley Iles, their products and their ethos. I feel they've been rather unfairly done to by the title of this thread, and I'm just standing up for them.

May I respectfully suggest that getting some sharpening and using practice under your belt would be a good step in the right direction; then you'd understand our stance a little better.

Good luck with the Lie-Nielsens. I'm sure they're excellent chisels and will give every satisfaction - but get using them!

 

[D_W]

I'm in the camp of this whole thing doing little to quell the excitement for AI's chisels, though.

Really, name something else new in the price range that's better. I'm sure beginners will think that they see a new make chisel that they feel might be better, but I can tell you pretty quickly why it's not unless you're going to be taking your chisels to a construction site and perhaps opening paint cans with them.

If you'd have lived near me, I'd have reground your whole lot square for you in 10 minutes and then probably blathered on just like here about how lucky you are to be able to get a chisel that good for that cheap. If AI didn't make them, we really wouldn't have anything short of looking at LV's much more expensive (but in very nice style for cabinetmakers) chisels. The continental european chisels need their lands ground down to be in the same class with the AIs, and that is a much larger ask than squaring a bevel. Something also not to be done for someone who may think they'll ever resell their chisels, too, as beginners don't want a better tool if it's been modified - it will seem unsafe to purchase to them.

 

[ColeyS1]

One thing I don't thinks been mentioned, is the initial pic looks like the chisels been honed, making it look even more out of square ?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I've used Classic Hand Tools. They're very good. Whether he's spent another £80 is irrelevant. They feel he had a justifiable case to return those goods. Adjusting to a woodworkers normal scope obviously isn't in their sales!

Its your opinion his words are harsh, you certainly aren't speaking for me and I doubt countless others. I don't want to state the obvious but its a public forum (within the boundaries of the owners consent) and people will say things other many may not agree with. Me, I'd agree to disagree and move on - as I will be, now.

The customer exercised his right to return goods bought by mail order. The seller acted correctly - and indeed, went above and beyond. We've no idea what advice the seller may or may not have offered the customer, and it's none of our business anyway.

However, the customer then left a negative post on a public forum about a certain manufacturer's product without - as far as I can tell - first contacting them for advice or giving them any opportunity to do anything about the situation. Thus, this thread will come up in the future when someone seeks information about AI chisels, painting them in a negative light, without AI having had the chance to do anything about it. That's a bit out of order, in my view, so I'm standing up for AI. I use some of their chisels, and have absolutely no problem with them.

err, we do have some idea. The seller offered him several options... He exercised his own choice in the matter.

"These cost £133 which is not cheap so its fair to expect a certain level of finish surely.... as mentioned even the guys at classic hand tools said they did not look right and gave me several options on how to proceed... the reason I chose not to send them back to AI to be re-ground was mainly due to the lack of solid turn around time."

Its none of our business (to you) yet you keep on about how he should have conducted himself on his purchase.

Whether you have had a happy experience with AI doesn't diminish his disappointment. His experience hasn't been yours. Its not the end of the world and as far as damage done to AI (its like he's eaten a baby or summat) I doubt its done any at all. Why? Because theres far more people who have had a better experience with AI. i'd stop panicking if I were you. Get some tin foil on your walls and ceiling and check the windows for Black Helicopters flying above. Any minute now... :roll:

...but HIS disappointment is for an utterly trivial reason which as a woodworker he should be able to correct for himself. His denigration of AI publicly on this thread - and his refusal to accept the advice of more experienced woodworkers - is the problem.

It's a great shame this has got out of hand, but I suppose that's life. Or the internet. Or whatever.

 

[iNewbie]

Its not trivial to him. Why this seems to evade you on your crusade to harass him is beyond me.

 

[Bm101]

Here's a picture I took on my phone today while painting the front room. You can tell I'm painting the front room because I've been painting it for bleeding ages. I hate painting.But once I start I have to do it properly. No one else can see the errors but I can. But then my cider got all shiny.
How does this help in the AI eternal chisel debate? It doesn't, not in the least. But it's a reminder we can all see different things in ordinary situations.
Lets move on.
Personally I think it's because Cider has more moves than James Brown. But that's just My Opinion.
If anybody else has any photos that capture the essence of the hidden soul of cider i'd say i'd be glad to see them. Personally I think you're knocking on a locked door. I reckon I took the best ever cider pic. Just saying.

 

[G S Haydon]

Sure not trivial to him, 'cos he don't understand. Others have merely pointed out it was a beginners problem of overthink. Understandable really, he's free to be "so disappointed" and other people are free to point out his review is worthless. As is your assertion of harassing.

 

[Bm101]

(Excellent photos of Stout will be considered).

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Its not trivial to him. Why this seems to evade you on your crusade to harass him is beyond me.

Whilst it is Pete's prerogative to complain about the chisels I don't see CC's response as "harassing". These posts come up high on google searches and future potential AI customers may well read them. Inexperienced wood workers could easily come away thinking that they wouldn't want to buy AI for this reason, especially if no one countered. As it stands what they will hopefully take away from this is that the ends might possibly be slightly out of square, but most woodworkers wouldn't worry about this.
It's a shame that Pete didn't make a post before this saying they were out of square and what did people on the forum think about this. I'm only up the road from him and if he'd have brought them to me I would have ground them square for free whilst telling him it didn't really matter (probably best off not wearing the £600 shoes at the dock though), or he could have taken them a mile up the road to North London Saws and they would have done it for £2 a chisel with no lecture.
Paddy

 

[Petey83]

No, Petey, I posted two links that showed chisels priced in the £20 to £30 each bracket, which is directly comparable to the AIs - indeed, more in some instances. The AIs are handmade, the Marples and Stanleys are (I presume) machine made.

With respect, I'm not really sure you're trying to understand what we're trying to tell you. Ashley Iles make very good cabinetmaker's bench chisels for a price comparable with good quality mass-produced chisels. You posted a thread with a title that suggested AIs product was disappointing, but the reason you give is just a trivial one, which any woodworker should be easily able to resolve for themselves. That's rather unfair on Ashley Iles, especially as they haven't (I presume) had any chance to comment, advise or whatever before the thread was posted.

Look, I really didn't want this argument, but I respect Ashley Iles, their products and their ethos. I feel they've been rather unfairly done to by the title of this thread, and I'm just standing up for them.

May I respectfully suggest that getting some sharpening and using practice under your belt would be a good step in the right direction; then you'd understand our stance a little better.

Good luck with the Lie-Nielsens. I'm sure they're excellent chisels and will give every satisfaction - but get using them!

The fact you used Amazon ias your justification is ridiculus as the prices are ll over the place there....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Advanced-Build ... ie+nielsen

I rest my case on that.....

Now if you Google the the Marples set you highlighted they are on average 50% cheaper than the AI set so comparably not really the same market segment.

I rest my case on that too...

You keep banging on about how I have some how soiled AI's good name.... at no point have i been derogatory about them as a company or their product, I have simply stated I was disappointed with what I received and chose to exchange for a different brand. You deem my reason for disappointment to be trivial but I don't, don't you see how arrogant that is on your part.

I do actually grasp what you are trying to say and agree I need to learn to grind tools but I don't agree that I should just accept poor QC and learn to fix it myself at my risk. I am actually competent at sharpening because I use a veritas jig, I am not however competent at grinding and was not about to start on a £133 gift!! If you'd like to fund my learning I can give you my paypal details and you can give me the £133 and I'll happily have a crack on the grinder with them.

For the last time to all those who seem to lack the capacity to grasp the examples I am trying to give - I am not comparing anything on monetary terms, what I am doing is highlighting other companies who make hand made products and put them out at a great level of finish for what is a reasonable price in their specific market segment - not talking about pound shop knives or glued and pleather shoes made in the peoples republic as these are not in the same market segment

 

[Petey83]

Its not trivial to him. Why this seems to evade you on your crusade to harass him is beyond me.

Whilst it is Pete's prerogative to complain about the chisels I don't see CC's response as "harassing". These posts come up high on google searches and future potential AI customers may well read them. Inexperienced wood workers could easily come away thinking that they wouldn't want to buy AI for this reason, especially if no one countered. As it stands what they will hopefully take away from this is that the ends might possibly be slightly out of square, but most woodworkers wouldn't worry about this.
It's a shame that Pete didn't make a post before this saying they were out of square and what did people on the forum think about this. I'm only up the road from him and if he'd have brought them to me I would have ground them square for free whilst telling him it didn't really matter (probably best off not wearing the £600 shoes at the dock though), or he could have taken them a mile up the road to North London Saws and they would have done it for £2 a chisel with no lecture.
Paddy

North London saws is actually rather close to me as i have moved out of Enfield - never knew they did hand tools but thats beside the point really - why couldn't AI do it???

That aside people really are obsessed by my shoes now 8) For what its worth I actually didn't pay £600 for any of them - sales and factory shop for me.... They have actually saved me money over the years as I am no longer buying 4-5 pairs of poorly made shoes a year from the high street anymore

 

[ColeyS1]

Have you honed the chisel in the pic you posted ?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Hey Chris (BM101) How's this for the hidden soul of cider