Arnold Laver - rip off pricing!?!

[Eric The Viking]

I've been in procurement for years in various industries and negotiating is just common practice I find.

Nobody objects to negotiating (or haggling - quite enjoy it depending on where in the world, etc.). The issue is sneaky behaviour - indicating one price and then charging something different once the customer has committed.

By committed, I don't mean contractually, in legal terms, but investing effort in the transaction, such as organising the time and getting in the van and driving miles, and selecting stock, all on the basis of one price, only to be told 'take it or leave it' when they arrive at the counter.

I don't understand why some corporate cultures seem happy to be known as untrustworthy in that sense. You can only lose integrity. It's next to impossible to regain it once it's gone.

E.

 

[Adam9453]

As I said, I don't agree with what they do.
I just accept they do it, beware of it, avoid those that do do it and go to those that don't do it.
If that makes sense

 

[AJB Temple]

Interesting thread. My perspective is that buyers have a great deal of power as we can search online and we can also phone up retailers in advance and agree pricing subject to quality. Vendors are at liberty to charge a different price for on-line v in store retail and that is there choice. We can all get up in arms about it but the truth is on-line sales are a lower overhead model administratively.

Customers need to be firm and clear about what they are willing to pay for a given quality of product. Customer always has the option to discover that his wallet is deeper in his pocket than he can reach. All buyers need to take responsibility for what we buy before we part with cash. Sale of Goods Acts and new Consumer Rights Act 2015 give consumers a great deal of power. Use it.

 

[sitefive]

Honestly all this industry is on borderline discrimination against certain people!

 

[blackrodd]

Honestly all this industry is on borderline discrimination against certain people!

The Original poster bought some timber in Arnold laver, on returning home, on the internet, he discovered
he had paid £5.odd more than the webb site advertised price, and being understandably annoyed, he has E mailed the CEO. Whom has not, as yet replied.
I'm interested in how you're comment above, "Honestly all this This industry is on borderline discrimination against certain people!" came about, Have you actually read the OP?
Regards Rodders

 

[Lons]

I don't understand what all the fuss is about and I'm with Bob on the view of naming and shaming before the company CEO has had an opportunity to respond. He may not even be aware that the shop is selling at such a difference, could be down to the manager.
I do understand the OP being highly annoyed at feeling ripped off and the knee jerk reaction to vent his annoyance on an open forum but it's only one side of the argument even if in this case it looks pretty clear. His later post saying no response from the CEO should have been his first post IMO.

The price was there to see when buying, the opportunity to challenge that and ultimately tell them to stick it was there so really he is as said annoyed with himself for not doing the maths, most of us have been there and you don't make that mistake a second time. Lavers have lost his business and have the opportunity to put that right, whether they do depends on perceived value of the customer and their reputation and that's their decision, a reputable company would attempt to put that right but not everyone has the attitude of John Lewis do they and it's up to us as buyers to either know value before we buy or accept what we see.
There's absolutely nothing more annoying whatever you've just bought to find that you could have got it for less somewhere else. I find that often and it drives me nuts but I'm in no doubt whose fault that is. #-o

As far as builders merchants are concerned they are basically trade wholesalers who over the years due to competition have targeted the retail market. If you're a genuine trade buyer, in almost all cases you would have a trade account, ( there are always a few exceptions ) in which case you would negotiate relevant discounts with your local branch based on perceived purchase volume, nothing wrong with that which is normal in most industries. If you're clued up enough you make sure that those terms are on the general computer system to ensure you get the same in every branch which is what I did with Jewsons!

If a retail customer then you're not entitled to trade prices but absolutely nothing to stop you negotiating as you can always go elsewhere.



cheers
Bob

 

[mind_the_goat]

Despite my flippant comment earlier I must admit that the builder merchant haggle ritual is quite new to me.
I accompanied a builder friend from out of the area to a local BM and the negotiation over price was a bit of a revelation, but the upshot is, don't accept the first price you are given, it may take 5 or 10 minutes while the staff tap numbers into their computer and come up with various 'discounts' but it'll probably be worth it, I guess the more stuff you have laid out the better your chances, the staff might be reluctant to put it all back on the shelves. It probably also helps if you understand some of the trade jargon, I would certainly have glazed over at that point if I was on my own.
Having a 'company name' could also be useful, just make something up.
I wouldn't rule out going back if this place is convenient for you, just have a better idea of what you feel happy paying and be prepared to work a bit at the counter. You do always have the option of walking away, as in any haggle.

 

[Eric The Viking]

If a retail customer then you're not entitled to trade prices but absolutely nothing to stop you negotiating as you can always go elsewhere.

The whole idea of "trade" prices sticks in my craw. Here are my concerns/questions:

1. A price is/was advertised. It turns out that's not what was charged at the end of the process. Reasons were given for this at the time, but it appears pricing was at best inconsistent, at worst arbitrary. Although there's been a lot of "it's always done this way, so caveat emptor", I have yet to read any ethical defence of this, least of all from the company concerned (whom, we were told, were invited to comment). I know you can't assume anything from silence, but I don't think anyone is in this case.

2. Different issue: What exactly is a "trade" discount price? is it for doing a certain value of business over a certain time, or is the supplier discriminating in favour of a certain type of customer. If the latter, who, and why? Contrast this with, say, D+M Tools, who have a simple points-based loyalty scheme: the more business you do with them the more discount you accrue.

I recently worked for a small IT support company: they long ago adopted transparent pricing for hardware and software purchases, as it eliminated customer concerns in that area. We'd even let customers buy themselves if they preferred, but we found that passing through any account discount was really valued and proved we had integrity. There are issues with this in woodworking (stock quality), but it's not insurmountable.

3. Second general issue: Various people, including me, have claimed "flexible" discounts are often a way of encouraging what are basically corrupt practices within the construction and allied trades. It's not always the case, obviously, but it certainly can be. Isn't there an argument for always having transparent pricing, for everyone? Who, apart from the corrupt, would lose by this?

4. Each piece of natural wood is different. The timber trade has to standardise pricing as it buys in bulk (obviously). At the final sale, profit can be made by charging more for better quality stock, and disposing of the poor quality stuff in the most economical way. That's reasonable, IMHO.

At the same time, trades expect certain grades and sizes to be consistently priced, so that they can quote correctly for jobs, etc., and basically run their own businesses efficiently. This doesn't strike me as unreasonable either, as long as it's transparent, and by definition, it's pricing based on volume (even if that isn't appreciated at the counter sometimes).

The question I have is, why does it so often NOT seem to be transparent?

Here are four made-up and rather flawed scenarios:

a. I do 50,000 pounds of business with a merchant annually. So I get a discount of 30%, based on this (similar to the D+M Tools model with gross simplification).

b. I do 1,000 pounds of business annually, but I have a "trade" account (because I have a VAT number and headed notepaper). I also get 30%.

c. I am a hobbyist. I do 500 pounds of business annually, but I get no discount.

d. I am a hobbyist. I do 5,000 pounds of business annually, but I get no discount.

It strikes me that, leaving aside the possibility of haggling, only (a) and (c) are fair.

As I said, the Americans had to tackle this years ago, because of the corruption engendered by our model (which they also used). It doesn't mean you can't haggle, but it does mean terms of trade are (or should be) the same for everyone.

E.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

One reason for inflated prices and "trade" discounts, of course, is the way costs are passed on. One merchant near me gives 65% off list on some stuff - a guy doing work for someone pays £35 and passes the cost on to the naive consumer as £100.

 

[Lons]

Can't agree with a lot of that Eric but then we're all different.

I assume that you like the rest of us benefit from low prices at the major sheds and large retailers. If they didn't get discounts for large orders, much of which is speculative based on the assumption of sales to match, the prices at the till would be much higher, far lower volumes of goods would be manufactured, no one would speculate and we would all pay a lot more and wait a lot longer in lead times. How many times on this and other forums do we see a heads up that Lidl, Aldi or others have cheap tools, that wouldn't happen. Which manufacturer, wholesaler or retailer is going to invest huge sums promoting markets without returns to match?

As far as builders merchants are concerned, as a trade buyer (I've retired now) I placed very regular high value orders with my normal suppliers. The merchant could handle my orders with minimum fuss and little expenditure of time. Generally not the case when it's the DIY guy in for a couple of 2x4s but takes a disproportinate time over the sale which in reality costs the merchant a great deal more pro rata to sale / profit value and keeps the frustrated trade customer waiting at the counter where time is money. I've been the victim of that many times but from the other side when in the plastics industry I eventually stopped supplying retail for that very reason, just couldn't afford it as I found staff being pulled off the 'phones to answer basic questions from people who didn't know what they wanted but wanted it for next to nothing anyway. We might make a tenner gross profit on a £30 sale but lose a £1000 at 12% gross and possible following orders because of it, doesn't make commercial sense!

Discounts and deals are what makes commerce Eric and the buyer has never been in such a powerful position. The internet makes it very easy to compare prices by those who can be bothered, so in reality average prices are indeed pretty transparent. Armed with that informationm no one forces us to spend as we have a choice, I see nothing fraudulent in that whatsoever.

Through my business I supplied as well as fitted and definitely made profit on goods supplied though I did always give some of that to my customers. Those profits covered my overheads and the running around I had to do on behalf of the customer in respect of those materials. Without that I would have had to increase my hourly rate and charge fuel, time etc. for those runs and additional for all the phone calls. Someone always has to pay or I might as well not have worked and my customers could always have given the work to another company.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree 'cos I'm not going to get into a huge argument.

Edit:

Trade prices are not what they seem anyway so your examples don't work. The difference between trade and retail (used to rec retail) varies with the product and depends very much on what the cost to the merchant is based on volume contracts the group have made, that means a commitment to buy. The amount of discount to a trade customer isn't fixed but depends on their negotiations with the merchant based on the same formula. I bought a lot of construction materials and timber so I had a very good standard price which I knew would be the same wherever and whenever I ordered in whatever quantity as my 12 month purchases would be what I had agreed. Some other products were rarely bought and I needed to ask for a price which is perfectly reasonable. I bought better than others but worse than many based volume on purchases.

cheers
Bob

 

[BearTricks]

This is what puts me off visiting timber yards. I don't think anyone can keep up with the price of every available species of timber, and being on a small island a lot of our timber is imported anyway with varying shipping and import charges layered on top.

Add that to the discretionary charges that so many places seem to include based on what you're wearing, how much grime is under your fingernails and how nervous you seem when wandering in to their lair and it doesn't seem worth it to the amateur woodworker who can only just afford £300 worth of walnut for his wife's new dining table, some of which might end up sacrificial when he makes a few mistakes anyway.

I have an idea of how the discounts work for larger companies who place regular orders and understand why they work this way, but overcharging amateur woodworkers and new businesses is a good way to put them under when a bit of forethought could ensure more business in the future.

 

[Lons]

but overcharging amateur woodworkers and new businesses is a good way to put them under when a bit of forethought could ensure more business in the future.

But who says what is an overcharge? The seller can put almost any price he wants on a product as long as not vetoed by the manufacturer / supplier and whatever a company charges, unless it has an absolute monopoly which is a different matter, the buyer has a choice to buy or take his business elsewhere and I repeat can very easily search and find what the price should be. I do it in everyday life with cars, furniture, holidays, tools whatever and anyone who can't ask for discount needs to "man up" IMHO :lol:

Any business needs to make profit to survive and prosper plus if you are ambitious enough to want to grow the business there has to be healthy surplus to invest in assets and people to provide that growth. Capitalism is seen as a dirty word by many but a large number of members on here will have drawn their salaries whilst working for those companies, me included and those jobs wouldn't exist otherwise.
When I started my own business I deliberately chose a different path as I didn't want the responsibility of having to worry about supporting the families of those I might employ so stayed a one man band. My company was small enough never to exceed the VAT threshold and I enjoyed stress free working however I still negotiated good discounts which I'd suggest anyone with the will to work for themselves would be able to do also, or maybe they should be employed instead. :wink:

add that to the discretionary charges that so many places seem to include based on what you're wearing, how much grime is under your fingernails and how nervous you seem when wandering in to their lair

Sadly true to a degree but in many walks of life we're judged by our appearance and possessions. I have an aquaintance now retired who owned a large garden centre, a millionaire he usually drove a fork lift around all day while his general manager ran the business. Not the guy you would go to first if looking for the boss man!

I was looking to buy a new BMW a number of years ago and called into a prestige dealership to look. I happened to be on my way home driving my van and in work clothes, I was totally ignored by salesmen standing around chatting and had to ask reception for a brochure. That dealership lost potential sales of 2 bms and 3 minis over the following years as on principle I bought from another dealer.
A typical attitude of "doesn't look as if he can afford it" but also an example of my own power of choosing where to spend my hard earned. - It's the way of the world!

 

[Eric The Viking]

I was looking to buy a new BMW a number of years ago and called into a prestige dealership to look. I happened to be on my way home driving my van and in work clothes, I was totally ignored by salesmen standing around chatting and had to ask reception for a brochure. That dealership lost potential sales of 2 bms and 3 minis over the following years as on principle I bought from another dealer.
A typical attitude of "doesn't look as if he can afford it" but also an example of my own power of choosing where to spend my hard earned. - It's the way of the world!

I got the same when I turned up to a school sixth form open day wearing my biking leathers. Not once, but several times I was cut dead by teachers when parents in smart clothes came into the room.

Needless to say, all three of mine went elsewhere (it was their choice too). Eight years on the school now has a reputation locally for ill-behaved children. It's sad: it was once a stellar grammar school, with two former pupils being Nobel laureates.

Meanwhile, from a quite different school, daughter #2 has just finished with better-than-Oxbridge grades and an excellent uni place next year. Not that I'm a proud dad or anything...

 

[Lons]

daughter #2 has just finished with better-than-Oxbridge grades and an excellent uni place next year. Not that I'm a proud dad or anything..

Not much you aren't Eric and quite right too. Your daughter should be proud of her achievements as well, hope she can make the most of all her hard work. =D>

 

[Student]

All this talk of wholesle/retail/trade discounts etc reminded me of something I read years ago about trade union negotiations:

If I earn more than you do, it's a differential which must be maintained at all costs. If you earn more than I do then it's an anomaly which must be corrected at all costs.

Personally, I would prefer that a merchant, builder's or timber, would advertise a cost then apply a discount to a loyal/bulk customer. What I find objectionable is the people at the till making an ad-hoc judgement on the day as to what to charge.

 

[AJB Temple]

All pricing is ad hoc at some point in the chain. Someone has to make a decision about what price to pay at source, manufacturer or wholesaler,, how much exposure to currency risk and whether to hedge it, how much stock to hold, how to finance it and how to distribute it. Then there is the replacement cost of that stock which is subject to price and currency variations: why sell stock cheaply now that you know will cost 10% more to replace? Theft must be factored in and this will vary across sites. Retailers are in business to make money, not do us a favour. Consumers like ourselves want the best product at the cheapest price. We can achieve that by shopping around (including using the internet), by developing a relationship with a good supplier - loyalty and friendship - good deals go to those who are nice (or can fake it convincingly). I see no reason from a business point of view why till staff should not be given discretion within a range. They may even be on a bonus scheme to shift certain things. Most of the power lies with the buyer: we choose whether to buy or not. If we buy badly, it is our own fault.

 

[Lons]

All pricing is ad hoc at some point in the chain. Someone has to make a decision about what price to pay at source, manufacturer or wholesaler,, how much exposure to currency risk and whether to hedge it, how much stock to hold, how to finance it and how to distribute it. Then there is the replacement cost of that stock which is subject to price and currency variations: why sell stock cheaply now that you know will cost 10% more to replace? Theft must be factored in and this will vary across sites. Retailers are in business to make money, not do us a favour. Consumers like ourselves want the best product at the cheapest price. We can achieve that by shopping around (including using the internet), by developing a relationship with a good supplier - loyalty and friendship - good deals go to those who are nice (or can fake it convincingly). I see no reason from a business point of view why till staff should not be given discretion within a range. They may even be on a bonus scheme to shift certain things. Most of the power lies with the buyer: we choose whether to buy or not. If we buy badly, it is our own fault.

Spot on analysis =D>

Problem is that human nature dictates that we all want a Rolls Royce for the price of a Mini and deep down all greedy which is why scammers have so much success taking advantage of those who hope to make a quick buck.

 

[Wizard9999]

Having started this thread I have read people's views with interest. I think AJB makes some good points worth a little more comment.

Retailers are in business to make money, not do us a favour. Consumers like ourselves want the best product at the cheapest price. We can achieve that by shopping around (including using the internet), by developing a relationship with a good supplier - loyalty and friendship - good deals go to those who are nice (or can fake it convincingly).

Yes I agree completely, businesses are there for their shareholders benefit, not the customers ultimately. But many businesses have to make choices about the benefit of a good customer relationship in the long term versus a higher profit in the short term. But for customers how do we determine the "best product", for me customer service is part of the 'product bundle'. From my perspectiver customer service, trust and loyalty are important factors - good customer service usually creates trust and ultimately loyalty, which leads to greater longer term profits.

I must be having a bad run of it of late as I have had a couple of other issues recently. I had a pair of ear defenders break after only a couple of months. They were cheap, I emailed the retailer about this, in the main as I was concerned that they way they broke could mean somebody could be hurt in future. Immediate response, do I want another pair or a full refund. I had not asked for either as I no longer had the reciept. No request for evidence of the failure, not requirement for the receipt. I know I can trust this retailer, they are in it to build a relationship with hme for the long term. No prizes for guessing which retailer originating in the south west I am talking about.

I also bought a well known, hand held mortising tool at a recent tool show. On getting home I find that two of the accessories I was told would be included by the manufacturers chap on the stand were not there. The retailer said I was given bad information and the margins were too thin to give them to me for free, but they would let me simply pay the difference to the next 'package deal' up where they were included and ship them to me for free. The manufacturer then contacted me and said it was 100% their fault, they are replacing the parts the retailer sent me so the retailer can fully refund me. In my view both the retailer and manufacturer did a great job and made me feel my future custom is important to them.

Most of the power lies with the buyer: we choose whether to buy or not. If we buy badly, it is our own fault.

Spot on, most of the power does reside with the buyer, but sellers have the ability to tweak their model toward short term profit or an investment in longer term revenue streams. As customer service and trust are important to me, guess what, I will be buying from Axminster, D&M Tools and Festool again. But not Arnold Laver. I wonder which of them will make the most profit out of my custom in the long run?

Terry.

 

[Lons]

Quite right Terry, it is a very short term policy for a company not to put customer service as 1st priority though of course your initial post was a pricing issue which is very different from your other two examples. Outcome the same however as you feel you were ripped off and won't use them again and short sighted of them not to refund you as a goodwill gesture to secure your loyalty.

I've just bought a bottle of expensive perfume on line for a birthday gift. It was cheapest on Amazon but many of the reviews complained about the product being received opened and watered down so I chickened out and bought on line from Tesco direct who I trust and at still a very good price. The perfume was supplied and delivered next day by one of their approved partners and guess what... the seal around the tin had been deliberately and carefully cut open.
This was Friday afternoon so a phone call to Tesco at 4.45 who took immediate action to contact the supplier who as they were about to close for the weekend promised an investigation and reply on Monday.
I have no problem with Tesco as can get immediate refund but am very suspicious of the supplier as I can see no reason other than fraud for anyone to carefully cut around a factory seal before dispatch. Be interesting to see what the explanation is, what I want from them is a replacement but intact.

Bob

 

[RobinBHM]

I cant see Tesco tolerating that, perhaps they wont be an approved partner for much longer!