Arnold Laver - rip off pricing!?!

[Wizard9999]

I visited my local branch of Arnold Laver a few days back for the first time, as I wanted to buy a piece of pine to build a prototype for something my daughter wants me to make. When I bought it I thought it seemed a bit pricey, but didn't do the maths in my head. I've just been online and got a bit of a shock.

I bought ex 25mm x 200mm, online Arnold Laver quote £2.72 incl. VAT per metre, but in the branch I was charged £3.48 excl. VAT per metre, so more than a 30% premium. I just phoned up Arnold Laver to ask why this is, the answer was that it is more in the branch because they have to cover the overheads of running the depot. But hang on a minute, it says when I look at the Laver Online website that once my order is in stock I will be called by the depot to discuss any specific lengths I may want. Doesn't this mean my online order is coming from the depot anyway? I don't have an issue with different channels charging different amounts if there is a logical reason for it, but I was not given one in this case. My suspicion is therefore that prices online may be lower, because comparison is easier online, but once you are in the branch you are pretty much a captive market.

Simple message from the women on the phone was effectively 'that's how it is, take it or leave it'. Well Arnold Laver, I shall be leaving it and won't darken your door again (either physical or online)!

Terry.

 

[marcros]

it sounds like you walked in and paid retail. It isnt uncommon at trade places- builders merchants tend to do this too.

 

[Wizard9999]

To be honest never e pecked anything else given it was my first time there and I bought one length of timber. But surely online would also typically be retail customers, so still not clear to me what the reason for the price differential is.

Terry.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Regrettably, I rather think you've been "had" Terry. All the merchants that deal with the trade are a bit "sharp eyed" in my experience and if you walk in like Joe Public you tend to get charged as such. I've always gone out of my way to haggle with them which I accept shouldn't be necessary if they want repeat business. Seems like in your case they've rather blown it! Trouble is Laver's isn't like a typical builders merchant because it has rough sawn hardwoods and numerous veneered boards and not just tanalised this n that plus skirting and architrave.

As you know I've been doing this for a while now and locally I've never found an alternative source with as wide a collection of materials. Knowing that I've always worked quite hard to keep their pencils sharp.

I still think Surrey sawmills is worth a reccy to see their stock but then that's a lot further than Reading.

I do think these guys take the mickey out of Joe Public though and I always feel a trifle uncomfortable when I'm at the paying desk because I know I'm in for a song and dance over a pound note!

 

[The Bear]

Random
When you say Surrey Sawmills do you mean Surrey Timbers. Or is Surrey sawmills a different place cause I've not heard of it and therefore naturally curios
If you do mean Surrey timbers I would second your suggestion they are worth a visit
Mark

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Surrey Timbers....yes sorry

 

[Roughcut]

If that is softwood I would say they are charging well over the odds in store.
I had several lengths of ex 225x25mm decent quality softwood delivered on Friday from a local supplier for £2.88 per metre inc vat.

 

[Wizard9999]

Regrettably, I rather think you've been "had" Terry...

Indeed, I think I was Bob, and it is in part my own fault because it felt expensive and I should have done the maths. Well, we'll see if their CEO supports the approach or tries to justify it, if he just ignores the email I sent him on the topic I guess I'll know.

Seems like in your case they've rather blown it!

Yup, as you well know I'm a bit obsessive so having started this woodworking game I will no doubt spend a small fortune in the coming years. Absent a very good reply from the CEO, for the sake of about a fiver they have ensured they will get none of that future spend. Sure it won't bring them to their knees, but "for the want of a nail..." and all that :wink:

Terry.

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

Surrey Timbers....yes sorry

I really went off them when I placed my first biggish order with them - they refused to deliver on a day I was in and not one of the planks they dumped off was the right width for the entire length. More than half weren't even the right length, and three were as straight as a banana.

OK for individual bits you can pick yourself, but I wouldn't trust them with an order again.

 

[The Bear]

Who do you use instead Sporky? I find them convienient but if there's somewhere better locally I'm up for trying them

Mark

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Honestly folk, I can't over emphasise the need to hand pick your boards for special furniture if you can't dimension in your own workshop. The only exception to that is if you know and have trust in the firm because they know you will reject poor quality boards. If I'm using PAR which admittedly is rare now, I hand pick and personally sight down every board

I'm absolutely convinced that the crap that's left in the yard gets delivered to whichever sucker is gullible enough to accept it. Harsh I know but it has more or less been my experience

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

Who do you use instead Sporky? I find them convienient but if there's somewhere better locally I'm up for trying them

I've just been working through stock on smaller things recently. I'd use Surrey Timbers again for exotics and individual bits, just not for an order. I thought they were a bit more ethical than that but I guess they'll take any chance to rip you off like anyone else.

 

[sitefive]

So OP you paid about 800 pounds per cubic meter to them...
Roughcut - You didn't fared too good either at around 500

I swear if my business picks up I'm just going to Import the timber myself from Eastern europe or even poland which isn't that far and it costs around 100quid/cubic meter there for pine.
Where did I come up with the price? I'm from Latvia originally where I used to buy timber at around 80-100pounds/cubic meter price this summer.. Just 10 times cheaper than the damn fckers are charging here in UK for the same timber! And trust me the quality is soooo much better than here in UK, because they will take fresh logs for you if you want and saw them to the exact sizes you need!
Need it planed down? Sure no problem it was just extra 35euros per cubic meter of materials you need planed down... damn how I miss that

 

[rafezetter]

I visited my local branch of Arnold Laver a few days back for the first time, as I wanted to buy a piece of pine to build a prototype for something my daughter wants me to make. When I bought it I thought it seemed a bit pricey, but didn't do the maths in my head. I've just been online and got a bit of a shock.

I bought ex 25mm x 200mm, online Arnold Laver quote £2.72 incl. VAT per metre, but in the branch I was charged £3.48 excl. VAT per metre, so more than a 30% premium. I just phoned up Arnold Laver to ask why this is, the answer was that it is more in the branch because they have to cover the overheads of running the depot. But hang on a minute, it says when I look at the Laver Online website that once my order is in stock I will be called by the depot to discuss any specific lengths I may want. Doesn't this mean my online order is coming from the depot anyway? I don't have an issue with different channels charging different amounts if there is a logical reason for it, but I was not given one in this case. My suspicion is therefore that prices online may be lower, because comparison is easier online, but once you are in the branch you are pretty much a captive market.

Simple message from the women on the phone was effectively 'that's how it is, take it or leave it'. Well Arnold Laver, I shall be leaving it and won't darken your door again (either physical or online)!
Terry.

My old place of work Kent home improvements (or kent building plastics as they are known on the local radio) have this exact same business model, and the just as spurious reason too. People would often look us up online then get charged more in the shop, and leave us at the counter to try to have to explain the reasoning behind it to those customers who questioned it, which is almost everyone. I was never comfortable doing it, and did my best not to sound like "take it or leave it", and had more than a few conversations with the director who had set this business model in play - needless to say they didn't like this (and other borderline tactics) business model being questioned and we parted company 8 months later.

I really don't like this stealth tactics of "draw you into the shop with enticing online prices, but we'll hike you once you get here" method. They can sell the item online for those prices and still make a healthy profit - the "it's the shop overhead's additional costs" are hokum because the online items are still shipped from the depot - which oddly turns out to be the shop - using the shop staff, and shop warehousing for storage of said items. There's no "additional overheads" at all.

 

[doctor Bob]

Seems a little unfair to be able to name and shame, especially the title, when they are not in a position to defend.

 

[custard]

If you're a decent sized customer with an established relationship, and you make middle of the road products where you just want standard timber to a reasonably consistent quality, then ordering by phone or online makes perfect sense. Your buying power puts you a bit higher up the food chain, and in any event you're not really looking for exceptional, highly figured boards that would threaten the consistency of your output.

But if you're a hobbyist making one-off pieces, or a full time maker building bespoke furniture, then you absolutely should be selecting your timber and veneers individually and in person.

Given that wood is a natural product with a huge quality range, I'm always astonished that prices tend to be very compressed within a disproportionately small scale. Really good boards aren't actually that much more expensive than really poor boards, but the impact they can have in making a piece of furniture special and different is decisive. One of the greatest eye openers a new woodworker can have is to go to a timber yard and pick through a boule (a log that's been sawn into boards and re-stacked into the shape of the original log), you'll be astonished that out of the say twenty boards in the stack there's generally just three or four that tick all the boxes, then there's the majority that sit in the middle of the quality scale, and finally there are often three or four that in my view are fit only for firewood. But all those boards eventually find a buyer.

Imagine the situation, a timber yard gets a load of say Walnut or Sycamore delivered. Some people get down in person and pick through the delivery, skimming off the best boards with the best grain and colour. A big customer phones up and asks for some boards which the owner will be careful to make sure are okay if not great. But other people are small and occasional buyers who order on line or by phone. Now guess who'll end up with the rubbish?

I used to get a twinge of embarrassment about picking through a stack and snaffling all the good stuff, but years of seeing timber yard owners just shrug, happy in the knowledge that they'll find a buyer for all my rejects, has cured me of those sentiments! It's dog eat dog when it comes to sourcing your timber and if you're not there in person then you might as well paint a target on your forehead.

 

[Droogs]

Very true Custard, it's allways best to choose your wood ones self. However the fact is that for many hobby woodworkers it's almost impossible due to time location or even knowledge level. The thing is, most hobbyists and even some proffessionals have to trust their suppliers will send them wood that is of good quality and for those occasions wher what is delivered isn't good enough, then don't accept it. Return it and ask for better to be sent, as is your right as the buyer.

 

[Wizard9999]

Seems a little unfair to be able to name and shame, especially the title, when they are not in a position to defend.

Without trying to sound tdefensive when I emailed the CEO of Arnold Laver to recount my experience I also explained I was unhappy enough to share my experience on forums for woodworkers and pasted this post at the bottom of the email. If he responds and seeks to refute my suspicions and / or provide a rationale for the pricing differences I will happily share it here, and if he has a logical explanation I will be happy to admit my mistake. Further, without wishing to rely of semantics there is a question mark in the title, yes two exclamation marks as well - I think the two to one ratio reasonably captures the balance of my view on this, i.e. I think there is a one in three chance that I will find there is a good reason for the difference.

Bottom line I am giving Arnold Laver the right of reply.

Terry.

 

[doctor Bob]

I think you could of had the decency to keep it private to start with (you say you only just phoned them) to see if it could have been resolved or explained. You were also offered the chance to take it or leave it.

I really don't like the idea of naming and shaming anyone immediately the problem comes to light , every business has problems mis understandings, genuine cock ups etc etc. To post things on open forums can do irreparable damage.

They may well have sold £5million pounds worth of timber this year to happy customers, and £5 worth to you, yet you are damaging their reputation probably more than the others are being positive. For example I had never even heard of Arnold Laver, now I know him as the guy who overcharges.

At least give the CEO a chance to respond in the next few days. A potential overcharge of a few pounds may not be his priority, I understand it's the principle but you have to understand it will not be top of his "to do" list.

 

[n0legs]

I was unhappy enough to share my experience on forums for woodworkers and pasted this post at the bottom of the email.

Terry.

Mail and black come to mind.
Sorry mate but that's the way the statement reads.
Should have questioned the price at the till. They have the money now and you ain't likely to get it back.