are there any decent techniques for squaring a chisel blade?

[Cheshirechappie]

Well, looking on the bright side, I suppose it took ten pages before we got to Sharpening Wars, so that's an improvement on past performance!

Jacob - plenty of very fine craftsmen use waterstones, so they can't be all bad. That said, waterstone use, like oilstone use, is not compulsory.

Everybody else - when it comes to sharpening, use whatever method suits your inclination, pocket, working conditions, available equipment or mood to get the edge you need on the tools you use. If that means oilstones, ceramic stones, waterstones, diamond stones, abrasive films, doorsteps, emery cloth, moon rock, rabbit droppings, telegraph poles, sharp sand or anything else and it works for you, that's just fine!

 

[Graham Orm]

.... you'll see why it's important to keep flattening......

I guess haven't seen the light yet! I haven't flattened a stone in 40 or more years of sharpening* - with absolutely no problem so far.

*Except once as an experiment - didn't see the point of repeating it.

Each to their own Jacob. I have tried all sorts of ways, as you probably have, and have by far been more satisfied by the results from the method I described. Pointless arguing, as the other thread on 'opinions' points out, we are all right and we are all wrong.

 

[Reggie]

Figure 8 is long gone from my mind, can't figure 8 a 2" blade on a 2" stone so for me the method falls over on it's face. I'd rather remember one method for all

Something I keep hearing a lot when there is one method being asserted over another 'They can't all be wrong', when the truth of the matter is that they can all be right.

The only issue for me with the hollow was that I couldn't get a decent single bevel on the rubbish (bent) chisel I had as I didn't have a reference face to work on, it also didn't particularly lend itself to well to flattening the back either, some of that probably down to my lack of control but clearly if there's no hollow at all, the lack of fine control becomes irrelevant as there aren't points for the back of the blade to rock on as you pass it across the stone.

Jacob, you clearly have a technique that works for you, which you've been using a long time, you have the luxury of having the control and skill to use it effectively, as far as I'm concerned yours is one of many methods that work

At the moment it looks 'wrong' to use a guide on a hollow, with the position of the wheel and the blade being on different parts of it the angle of the blade towards the stone must change unless the hollow is a perfect radius?

luckily for me, I have 4 more chisels I can have a go with, so I can test that theory out on the hollowed stone now I have a guide I can see how much of it was down to my poor control.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

:roll: Wait for it - Which is why oil stones are better blah blah blah......here we bl00dy go again :roll:

It's only an opinion you know.
Please tell us why you think soft, fragile, expensive, waterstones which need flattening every time they are used, are superior. :lol: :lol:

PS I've never tried a waterstone. I'm open minded - I would have a go, except I've never heard a single convincing argument in favour of them.

:? You clearly are not open minded - many people here over a time have commented how and why they find them superior, yet you see fit to criticise them without ever having tried them. That is not open minded.
I find waterstones better. I used oilstones for years, and once in a while I use diamond plates. I don't try to tell others which is best, but at least I've used the others. I've not used a ceramic stone, so I'm not about to tell anyone they're rubbish.

 

[bugbear]

At the moment it looks 'wrong' to use a guide on a hollow, with the position of the wheel and the blade being on different parts of it the angle of the blade towards the stone must change unless the hollow is a perfect radius?

How big would the deviation from a uniform circle need to be for the change in bevel angle to become significant? Extra marks if you show your working.

At worst you'd find that a jig was generating Jacob's beloved convex bevel - win, win!

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

:roll: Wait for it - Which is why oil stones are better blah blah blah......here we bl00dy go again :roll:

It's only an opinion you know.
Please tell us why you think soft, fragile, expensive, waterstones which need flattening every time they are used, are superior. :lol: :lol:

PS I've never tried a waterstone. I'm open minded - I would have a go, except I've never heard a single convincing argument in favour of them.

:? You clearly are not open minded - many people here over a time have commented how and why they find them superior, yet you see fit to criticise them without ever having tried them. That is not open minded.

It's this sort of thing below which puts me off. Graham seems to think it's normal but to me it sounds a PITA.

......
Forget figure 8. Impossible to keep and angle or even pressure. For quick easy sharpening, use an Eclipse jig and flatten your stone every 60 strokes reversing the stone after 30 unless you want wavy blades. Take a flat stone, do 30 strokes then check it with a steel rule for flatness, you'll see why it's important to keep flattening. I get a sheet of very coarse wet and dry on a piece of melamine faced conti board. Spray it with water and give the stone 10 or so strokes over it, that will usually bring it back to flatness. (I'm talking waterstones here). I clamp the wet and dry at one edge to the board and hold the other edge with the other hand. It never slips.

I find waterstones better. I used oilstones for years, and once in a while I use diamond plates. I don't try to tell others which is best,

Yes you do, 3 sentences back: "I find waterstones better". It's perfectly OK for everybody to say what they prefer this is what forums are for amongst other things.

 

[Jacob]

At the moment it looks 'wrong' to use a guide on a hollow, with the position of the wheel and the blade being on different parts of it the angle of the blade towards the stone must change unless the hollow is a perfect radius?

I think you have arrived at the crossroads.
On the one hand - jigs don't work if stones aren't flat, but flattening stones is PITA and can involve a lot of kit.
On the other - freehand works with flat or hollow stones (within reason) but demands a slightly higher level of hand/eye skill (not a lot, anybody can do it) but one double sided stone will do you for a lifetime.
Only you can choose!

PS water stones seem to be a Japanese concept, but they do do convex bevels and they don't use sharpening jigs. Why is this? Perhaps the underground Japanese Tool Study Group could enlighten us?

 

[Reggie]

No idea what the deviation would need to be but there's only one way to find out

Jacob, these are only things that have been suggested with regard to flattening, I can only find out who is right or wrong by testing, that sounds reasonably pragmatic to me, not mad, I'm more than happy to be corrected and to change my opinion at any given time if I can see the flaw or benefit. I'm not going to rush out and buy more kit especially for this, I'll pick up some abrasive paper of some description in the course of a project. You're right of course, it is a crossroads, then again, I didn't expect to necessarily use the guide again once I'd got a single bevel to work from, although I might use it for the plane blade.

I'm not going to go nuts on buying stones at all, which was the reason for asking about grits, it seemed to me that by the replies that there were that they vary quite a bit, between the 2 stones and 4 faces I have at least 3 distinct grits, which I'll probably stick with. Dressing a stone seems to be something you probably don't need to do on the coarse india stones very often if they're being used evenly, I suspect that it's not noticable enough for it to matter as the smooth side should even things up.

This last one isn't a dig at anyone, merely an observation, I wonder if hollowed stones came about because old craftsmen just didn't care about that kind of minutae and just got on with the job in hand or whether there was a logical reason behind it? Does anyone think we're now in an age where we could actually over analyse things?

What we haven't had is a discussion of why different stones are used, that would probably go some way to explaining why people prefer them over others? For instance, weren't all the good natural stones disappearing, so other sharpening mediums became popular alternatives? and with those different mediums came different ways of caring for them?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Jacob, no I didn't try to tell anyone which was best - I merely said I find waterstones better. It really wasn't that difficult to understand.

 

[GazPal]

Figure 8 is long gone from my mind, can't figure 8 a 2" blade on a 2" stone so for me the method falls over on it's face.

And yet the figure 8 method works far better with the edge worked longitudinally on the stone. This makes it possible to accurately hone edges measuring as much as double the stone's width.

----------------

Honing should involve minimal effort, as an edge is whetted on the stone. REGARDLESS OF METHOD USED. To a point, I agree with using guides as a means of maintaining/checking grinding angles - although I don't do so myself - before moving on to hone and consolidate the final cutting edge. Many seem to make the mistake of continuing to use an edge way past the point where it needs re-touching and this then lends itself to a far greater degree of effort when re-establishing edges and angles.

A little and often is far easier than finding yourself with a great deal more work less frequently. Consider re-whetting an edge as soon as it's initial lustre has faded. If you think an edge should last much longer, think again and re-whet long before cutting quality becomes an issue and you suddenly find yourself forcing the cut. By doing so, wear bevels no longer become problematical, because more frequent re-whetting should make them virtually obsolete, or at least so insignificant they disappear after a couple of swipes on the stone and sharpening becomes a simple matter of routine.

Sharpening is a necessary skill set that shouldn't be avoided or neglected and yet many seem to put off sharpening for longer than they should. Initially - as an apprentice - I didn't realise the importance behind regularly stropping and honing my edge tools during use, but several long sharpening sessions made me understand the need to frequently top-up edges on the move and not allow myself and my work to grind to a total stand still. Irrelevant perhaps to part-time woodworkers? I don't think so, as prolonged sharpening sessions IMHO detract from the ultimate purpose of involvement in woodworking and the enjoyment involved in crafting.

Keep your sharpening sessions short and set up simple and you'll be surprised just how quickly a seemingly daunting skill set can be mastered. :wink:

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Having now observed this thread develop into an almost uncontrollable monster squid I think it's time for this hoary old chestnut to make a reappearance, particularly as we seem to have a few new faces around here just trying to get the basics of sharpening under control. Slainte.

 

[GazPal]

This last one isn't a dig at anyone, merely an observation, I wonder if hollowed stones came about because old craftsmen just didn't care about that kind of minutae and just got on with the job in hand or whether there was a logical reason behind it? Does anyone think we're now in an age where we could actually over analyse things?

What we haven't had is a discussion of why different stones are used, that would probably go some way to explaining why people prefer them over others? For instance, weren't all the good natural stones disappearing, so other sharpening mediums became popular alternatives? and with those different mediums came different ways of caring for them?

Cost and the fact they're a niche market contributes more greatly to the rarity of natural stone hones than availability. Snake oil salesmen soon hit onto other "new" types of honing medium, as the wheel is re-invented when man made products hit the marketplace, or writers re-discover once obsolete methods.

Yes, there is far too much present day over-analysis. Life was far simpler when our tool kits amounted to what we actually needed, rather than what others thought we should have.

Stone types and grades and the reasons they're in use is a wide ranging topic. Primarily revolving about traditionalist, new age and those wishing to emulate crafting techniques and tools used via different nationalities. If you wish to avoid potential confusion, you're perhaps best advised to avoid internet fora, but invest in a few good woodworking books and enroll in a good class or seek the advice of an established craftsman.

 

[Reggie]

Sgian, that pretty much sums up my point about not caring about the minutae

Gary, these chisels all need/needed attention, the 3 I've done so far have taken more time than I care to mention but that has been to get them to a state where little and often will be all that's required, I really do only want to spend 2 mins at a time. Stropping is something I'll consider too in the future but getting an edge to strop in the first place was more important.

as for avoiding internet forums, not a chance There are plenty of established amateur and professional craftsmen here, with some very sound advice, why waste that opportunity to learn? I will certainly end up reading some books but there's nothing like first hand experience from the horse's mouth.

 

[GazPal]

Sgian, that pretty much sums up my point about not caring about the minutae

Gary, these chisels all need/needed attention, the 3 I've done so far have taken more time than I care to mention but that has been to get them to a state where little and often will be all that's required, I really do only want to spend 2 mins at a time. Stropping is something I'll consider too in the future but getting an edge to strop in the first place was more important.

as for avoiding internet forums, not a chance There are plenty of established amateur and professional craftsmen here, with some very sound advice, why waste that opportunity to learn? I will certainly end up reading some books but there's nothing like first hand experience from the horse's mouth.

Good to hear regarding you not avoiding fora. I think the hardest part for you will be distilling information and deciding upon a singular route when advice is hurtling at you from all directions. That's why I'd mentioned avoiding them while seeking out a decent course.

 

[Reggie]

Actually, if anything this thread has given me a decent direction Last week I was looking at all sorts of sharpening stones, devices and methods, now I have distilled that down to buying an £11 honing kit that contained a £2 stone I have flat bevels to allow me to practice by hand and a honing guide close to hand if everything goes horribly wrong, the only question to answer now is 'to hollow or not to hollow?', everything else is fairly irrelevant, I'd say that was fairly well distilled.

 

[wizard]

Hi all, the title didn't have enough chars to let me finish, I appreciate that you can put an edge on a chisel using a grinder but I don't have access to one, I've been given a set of chisels and none of the blade edges are square with the sides, there's about a 10deg slope.

I have at my disposal a single largish file (triangular), a set of crummy needle files that probably cost a quid, 3 grades of wet and dry and an oilstone, what are my options here?

Is it worth me trying to construct a small jig of some description and hoping the wet and dry will do the job or use the files?

is there anyone in east sussex that can just square these up for him

 

[bugbear]

PS water stones seem to be a Japanese concept, but they do do convex bevels and they don't use sharpening jigs. Why is this?

Normal Japanese practise is single flat bevel, maintained by hand.

Exceptions can be found to both.

BugBear

 

[bugbear]

If you wish to avoid potential confusion, you're perhaps best advised to avoid internet fora, but invest in a few good woodworking books and enroll in a good class or seek the advice of an established craftsman.

If you want to avoid confusion, avoid multiple sources, wether on fora, books, classes or advisors.

As long as only have one source, you'll have no contradictions to resolve.

Of course, you might have picked the wrong source (no names, no packdrill) but you'll never know,
so you won't mind.

BugBear

 

[Reggie]

Hi all, the title didn't have enough chars to let me finish, I appreciate that you can put an edge on a chisel using a grinder but I don't have access to one, I've been given a set of chisels and none of the blade edges are square with the sides, there's about a 10deg slope.

I have at my disposal a single largish file (triangular), a set of crummy needle files that probably cost a quid, 3 grades of wet and dry and an oilstone, what are my options here?

Is it worth me trying to construct a small jig of some description and hoping the wet and dry will do the job or use the files?

is there anyone in east sussex that can just square these up for him

Wizard, thanks but I don't need them squaring any more, I sorted it out when I flattened it to a single bevel.

 

[Jacob]

PS water stones seem to be a Japanese concept, but they do do convex bevels and they don't use sharpening jigs. Why is this?

Normal Japanese practise is single flat bevel. Some Japanese use jigs.

BugBear

How do you know this? Jap convex bevels have been commented upon many times and there is no Japanese honing jig. In fact the honing jig was unknown to woodwork universally and is only a fairly recent novelty on the amateur woodwork scene.