What make is that ?
Is that small rocker switch on the front for a shadow light ?
Is that small rocker switch on the front for a shadow light ?
Any Festool owners?
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The "i plus" induction motor version of Metabo's KGS254
Useless to the OP, it's 1300mm nose to tail.
There's a top handle cast into the blade housing but it's far to heavy for me to hump about.
On a dewalt tablesaw stand though, I can wheel it out, open up the legs and get it hooked up inside 2 minutes.
The switch is for a red laser. Mains powered. Never use it.
Check the fences for square with a moore n wright combination, mark up with a knife, drop the blade and line the knife mark up with the edge of a tooth then you're good for better than .25mm across the full sliding cut.
Useless to the OP, it's 1300mm nose to tail.
There's a top handle cast into the blade housing but it's far to heavy for me to hump about.
On a dewalt tablesaw stand though, I can wheel it out, open up the legs and get it hooked up inside 2 minutes.
The switch is for a red laser. Mains powered. Never use it.
Check the fences for square with a moore n wright combination, mark up with a knife, drop the blade and line the knife mark up with the edge of a tooth then you're good for better than .25mm across the full sliding cut.
I really rate my festool TS55 track saw which was the first festool tool I bought. I use it with the makita tracks which are identical to the festool ones but half the price. The dust extraction is impeccable, 98% or better. The saw just works well. They are just well designed tools which are well built and last.
They are however, nowhere near worth the cost! I buy all my stuff used so for example the TS55 cost me £150. I bought a domino DF500 with a whole case of dominos for £400, an ETS125 for £90, a rotex125 for £120. Had to replace the motor armature on the rotex about a year later which cost me about £100 I think, but that was a full send-off to festool have it fully checked over and serviced and repaired by them job. Replaced the switch button on the ETS for about £10.
I always look at things like this - I would rather buy a good quality tool second hand, than a low quality tool new. The low quality tool will always be low quality, have a bit too much slop, not be as ergonomic. The good quality tool, whilst it might need some replacement parts etc, if well looked after will remain a good quality tool. Buying used makes good quality tools viable for the diyer/hobbyist.
Festools spare parts are widely available, the diagrams on their website are excellent.
I dream of owning a kapex, mostly because due to my space constraints I need a mitre saw which slides on the rails, rather than the other way round (no room behind for the rails to poke out). Instead I have a DWS774 (also used). It is absolutely fine for its purpose, I like the shadow line thing rather than a laser which the older kapex had. but dust collection on my dewalt is atroshus, and lacks a trenching function which is the thing I wish I had most. The used KS60's come up for about £450-600 and I just cannot justify the money, my dewalt cost me £80 I think.
I would also never buy the drills, I have a friend with them who gets them via festool sponsorship and he says that he wouldn't buy one in a million years himself as they just arent worth the price. He has one of the new table saws which to be fair I think have a huge market in england with our smaller workspaces compared with the US - but again are prohibitively expensive.
They are however, nowhere near worth the cost! I buy all my stuff used so for example the TS55 cost me £150. I bought a domino DF500 with a whole case of dominos for £400, an ETS125 for £90, a rotex125 for £120. Had to replace the motor armature on the rotex about a year later which cost me about £100 I think, but that was a full send-off to festool have it fully checked over and serviced and repaired by them job. Replaced the switch button on the ETS for about £10.
I always look at things like this - I would rather buy a good quality tool second hand, than a low quality tool new. The low quality tool will always be low quality, have a bit too much slop, not be as ergonomic. The good quality tool, whilst it might need some replacement parts etc, if well looked after will remain a good quality tool. Buying used makes good quality tools viable for the diyer/hobbyist.
Festools spare parts are widely available, the diagrams on their website are excellent.
I dream of owning a kapex, mostly because due to my space constraints I need a mitre saw which slides on the rails, rather than the other way round (no room behind for the rails to poke out). Instead I have a DWS774 (also used). It is absolutely fine for its purpose, I like the shadow line thing rather than a laser which the older kapex had. but dust collection on my dewalt is atroshus, and lacks a trenching function which is the thing I wish I had most. The used KS60's come up for about £450-600 and I just cannot justify the money, my dewalt cost me £80 I think.
I would also never buy the drills, I have a friend with them who gets them via festool sponsorship and he says that he wouldn't buy one in a million years himself as they just arent worth the price. He has one of the new table saws which to be fair I think have a huge market in england with our smaller workspaces compared with the US - but again are prohibitively expensive.
I would only add that your buying strategy is completely dependant on other
people having had the sense to buy those tools new.
100%I would only add that your buying strategy is completely dependant on other
people having had the sense to buy those tools new.
but people buy new tools and sell them for all sorts of reasons
- more money
- going to be using tools for their business so valuable to have warranty etc and to know they have something out of the box less likely to go wrong etc
- don't know how to repair or maintain things
Its basically the same with cars - few people would choose to have a second hand car if money were no object. Lots of people lease for a year then get rid, because they don't like the idea of long term maintenance etc etc. Those are the tools I usually look out for.
If woodwork were my business then my strategy would not be sensible, but it isn't, so buying used is the only way I can afford decent tools.
Realistically, the tools I buy will see nothing at all in the way of use and hard work compared to the people I buy them off (usually tradespeople using day in day out etc). I kind of see it like the tool comes to me to have a more gentle retirement - and i'm happy to look after them in their retirement!
Thats my next purchase. Its the sawstop aspect of it. Working alone I need every safety aspect I can get.
Just need to sell a bike to get the funds for it.
Wanna buy a bike ?
After over 40 years as a professional carpenter working in the workshop and building custom luxury homes, the following may be of benefit or helpful to you in your decision.
I and my crews have owned and extensively used virtually every miter saw on the market in the last 40 odd years, both on site and in the workshop.
Even though I am now retired, I still have 2 pretty new KS60E Festool saws (don’t ask me why, I think I’m just addicted to buying tools!)
HONEST OPINION
After extensive use of every major makers saw on the market both in the workshop and on site.
Whilst all the major manufacturers have all excellent mitre saws in general including Makita, Dewalt, Bosch, Festool, Matebo Hitachi etc… There are in my experience only 2 manufacturers to consider for you.
Work Site and Workshop: Festool KS60E/ 120—- Bosch 12” Axial glide and 8” glide
If this is going to be your only mitre saw then there are a few very important factors for you to consider before purchasing ANY saw.
1) Is it going to be in a workshop or is it going on site?
If your going to be lugging it around then size and weight is going to be a huge issue. If it’s going in the workshop then size is not critical.
2) Is space a premium if going into the workshop?
If your space is tight then you need to consider a zero rear clearance saw and there are now a few brands that make these quite well although some are markably better than others, notably the Bosch Axial Glide which is far superior than anything else. This is still under patent and all the other manufacturers would take your arm off to get it. I suspect that they have all got designs based around this already built and ready to go as soon as the patent runs out around 2032 I think.
Also if going into the workshop then this also becomes a huge factor when you build your surrounding mitre station as you will lose a massive amount of space behind the machine if it doesn’t have zero clearance.
3) what is going to be the saws primary function?
This will also dictate the blade size and depth of cut. If you also have a table saw then this isn’t going to be too critical, if not then this will be a major factor. The KS60E has an impressive 305mm depth of cut with only an 8” Blade !!
The Ks120 with its 10 inch blade has a 305mm width of cut
The Bosch 8” 317mm depth of cut 12” has 342mm
Extraction
This is a huge factor in the workshop, not so much onsite. The Festool wins out in this department although Bosch has recently redesigned extraction on the Axial glide and this is a vast improvement over previous versions.
Accuracy
Both saws are very, very accurate (once set up correctly). The Axial glide system is a more rigid design with less flex although both are excellent.
I would also suggest that before you even start using either saw, change the blade for the best quality you can afford for the specific use you intend. As a general rule, a 40/60 tooth tipped blade will be a good choice for general purposes and will give you a superior cut than the one supplied by either manufacturer, although these are still very adequate blades the do tend to try and save money on blades by usually supplying a a 24 tooth blade. These are perfectly fine for certain purposes but as an all round blade you need a larger tooth count.
Nice Extra Touches
Both saw come with LED lights which is a great feature and as I get older, becomes more useful!
Both saws have laser cutting markers on, although I’m not sure which one has a double laser where you cut between the lines.
I just can’t remember. As a professional I find these to be a gimmick as they are in my opinion, not trustworthy enough for fine finish but good enough for the likes of framing.
The shadow line is a far better option, which I have on my Festools and is also available on the Bosch.
Although please remember, there is absolutely nothing better than your mince pies!
CONCLUSIONS
Either saw is an excellent choice in both sizes and will both work well in either size in the workshop or site.
I can guarantee that you will be happy with either model and manufacturer.
It’s a tough choice, although I actually have 2 KS60’s. If I was starting from scratch then I think I would more than likely go for the Bosch 12” Axial Glide for the workshop setup and the KS60 for lugging around simply due to the lighter weight and smaller footprint.
Unless of course you get the stands, then that’s a whole different story and the Bosc 12” or the Festool 120 would be the choice.
I hope that this has helped you decide or at least cut out all the chaffe. Please let me know what you decide and how you actually get on with whatever choice you make.
Kindest regards,
Joe Balanda
J Balanda Joinery & Construction (sadly retired)
Ps… do not let this sway you, but I am just about to sell one of my Festool KS60E”s
It’s in superb condition as it’s just been sitting in the picture framing studio and has probably only cut around a dozen picture frames.
Here’s a couple of images.
If you’re interested then jus drop me an email on [email protected]
Or call / text me on 07624-476867
Whatever you choose Good luck and remember, “ carpenter's always have hard wood in the morning. Lol
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AmericanCraftsmanship
Member
Neither. I'm a professional who thought of giving the Kapex a try as I rely on Festool gear daily to put food on my table. I also own a Rotex, ES 150/3, DF 700, TS75, Carvex 400, OF1400, OF2200, OFK 700. I'd buy them all again except the TS75 and the Kapex. The Kapex is simply overpriced for what it does. I honestly can't see the value in a £1200 miter saw. I deeply regret buying it.So which are you ? the fanboy or the youtuber
1/4 mil out of 8 inches. WOW thats pretty darn good and well, WELL within acceptable levels of accuracy.
Why spend £1200 on a miter saw? What does it do that a £650 Dewalt won't do? A fraction of a degree out of square Might be an acceptable level of accuracy, but a 300 pound saw will cut to the same level. Today it was about 1.5 mill out over 8 inches and had to spend time reseting the gauge on the detents. For 1200 pounds it should stay dead square. Haven't checked the runout, but now curious. Dewalt 780 is almost have the price and just as good if not better.So which are you ? the fanboy or the youtuber
1/4 mil out of 8 inches. WOW thats pretty darn good and well, WELL within acceptable levels of accuracy.
Cool. Have you a website. Always love seeing others work, not that Im a plagiarist or such
As to the saw, most other cabinetmakers I've worked with have one,and are more than happy, certainly never heard complaints, and like yourself we have the pick of what we want.
I bought mine for its dust extraction. Certainly no fun when the saw kicks 1/2 its dust straight up into the atmosphere for it to slowly settle on everything and get continually breathed in. The kapex beats all the others hands down.
The other option for the professional would be Mafell. Their origins are German heavy duty carpentry, mainly the big stuff. It's like Festool on steroids.
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Doug71
Established Member
I saw a friend last night and it made me think of this post.
He's quite new to woodworking and is in the process of kitting out his workshop, where most people would be looking at track saws etc he's just bought a Wadkin CC Crosscut off ebay for £250 (it's massive)! I shouldn't be surprised as his is other purchases so far are a Wadkin BAOS planer and a Wadkin EQ spindle moulder, his total machinery spend so far is less than £1000.
He is an engineer so does enjoy fiddling and appreciates well built machinery, he did tell me he currently has a bid on a Wadkin 5 head tenoner which I personally think is a step too far!
Adam W.
A Major Clanger
Mafell don't make a sliding compound mitre saw, thobut.Cool. Have you a website. Always love seeing others work, not that Im a plagiarist or such
As to the saw, most other cabinetmakers I've worked with have one,and are more than happy, certainly never heard complaints, and like yourself we have the pick of what we want.
I bought mine for its dust extraction. Certainly no fun when the saw kicks 1/2 its dust straight up into the atmosphere for it to slowly settle on everything and get continually breathed in. The kapex beats all the others hands down.
The other option for the professional would be Mafell. Their origins are German heavy duty carpentry, mainly the big stuff. It's like Festool on steroids.
But I never said they did :/
Ollie78
Established Member
They do make the Erika 85 though.
I really dislike the makita. With the rails out front it is really hard to properly see the cut on the left side. And I'm a carpenter that uses a saw all day long. Our boss replaced our dewalt with a makita, it's new and shinny and sits in the trailer now. Not one of our carpenters who tried the new design liked it.
A good point, so rails out the rear are not good for space and rails out the front impair vision so the only other option is the Bosch glide unless space is not an issue and you can accept rails out the back so anything with rails out the front is to be avoided.
Come back RAS, all is forgiven
Adam W.
A Major Clanger
Indeed and I think it looks very good and I would very much like one, although it's probably best not left on site as it will likely become someone else's Erika 85.
Yes, rails out the front a problem every time you try and make a cut, rails out the back, only a problem when you set it up, make sure it will extend , screw it doan then it's never ever a problem again.
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I've no idea how you are trying to use any of the 1019/1219 models. The rails don't come into the user's vision. They can't be described as "front" rails, they are on the side.
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And Kapex owners, poor folk have a bar on each side
And that makita above is just trying too hard to look fancy, with its multi pivot hold down clamp and clear blade guard.
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