Advice regarding Dust extraction Please..........

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Mark.R

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I have the Axminster ADE4000 Dust extractor, and am disappointed with the level of suction. The ducting leaves the machine in a 13 ft, 4 inch diameter main artery. Off this I spur off to 6x power tools. Again these spurs are also in 4 inch diameter ducting. I should say, when I say "ducting" I mean 4 inch soil pipe.

My question is, do you think the extraction would improve if I changed the main arterial pipe coming from the extractor, from 4inch to 6 inch, with the spurs as they are in 4 inch? Or do you think this will not make much difference?

Would appreciate your advice please.

Thanks

Mark.r
 
do you have blast gates on each of the pipes leading to the individual tools? if not, this would be the culprit. you'll need to concentrate the suction on one tool at a time.

hope this helps,

Dan
 
Yes, I have individual blast gates to each of the tools.

A chippy told me on Friday that the diameter of the spur pipes should be less than that of the pipe it comes off. How true that is, I dont know, so if someone out there has encountered a similar problem, or has the knowledge, please let me know.

Thanks

Mark.r
 
I don't have 'the knowledge' but AFAIK the diameter should reduce towards the power tool, not the other way around. The suction should be greater as it reduces?
 
There is a point of equilibrium between the power of the machine to generate a particular amount of suction and the size of the pipe that will most efficiently deliver that suction over a given distance. If youre moving around 350 CFM then the 4" pipes are fine. If youre moving 800-1000 CFM or more then you will want to upgrade to 6" pipes. if your machine is more consistent with a shop-vac, then 2.5" pipes are called for. pipes should be 4 or 6" all the way to the machines with a reducer only if necessary at the very end of the pipe in order to connect to the machine.

I looked at the spec's on your machine and it comes out to 1350 CFM. I would reccomend running a max. 6" pipe from the main all the way to the tools or reducing once to 4" pipes to each of the tools. (with a final reducer to fit the tool of course)

check for clogs/cleanliness throughout the pipes, at the impeller, filter, etc. make sure all is clear and clean and try again. if this does not clear the problem, call the manufacturer or the store and inquire further.

The only other thing i can think of is if you are running pipes more than 10-20 feet from the machine. With every unit of distance, suction decreases by a consistent percentage. i dont recall the percentage, but it is significant. with 350 CFM or less, i would reccomend no more than a 10 foot distance from any machine. otherwise youre power will be less than expected.

regards,

dan
 
There are multiple different things that can affect the performance of an air flow system, a good place to start would be by ignoring most of them as they aren't significant enough. There are a handful of things that really make the big differences...

1. If you have the redundant vents closed off with blast gates then you can ignore everything except the direct path between the open gate and the dust extractor vent to atmosphere. If there's no flow down them, there's no pressure drop and no interactions. Make sure this is true, or the rest doesn't work

2. It is important to remember that you can only suck air in at the rate it can leave the extractor, if your bags/filters are full or blocked then that's the first problem, what goes in, must come out (or is stored)... I learned that at university! :D

3. As any fluid flows down a pipe it has to rub against the walls which slows it down, therefore big pipes have faster flows (same as deep rivers etc...). Pressure drop and flow are proportional to each other, so a super slick large diameter pipe will loose very little energy through friction down its length, so have a small pressure drop and small decrease in flow rate. A huge fan connected to a tiny pipe half a mile long will loose all its energy in friction and have very little flow at the far end and a big pressure drop.

4. So why not have huge pipes all the way? If a certain volume of air is being pushed down the pipes in a certain time (for your extractor 3,500 cubic metres per hour) then the cross sectional area dictates the flow speed, if I had a 10 square metre pipe it would need to flow at 350 metres per hour (=0.35kmph), if I had a 0.1 square metre pipe if would need to flow at 35,000 metres per hour (35kmph = much faster). Back to rivers again... tiny streams (flowing slowly becasue of paragraph 3) can carry soil particles and maybe a small bit of gravel, a tsunami travelling much faster can carry cars and houses. So the mass of particles a flow can support (and hence extract) depends on the speed it's moving at. Big pipes with slow speeds may be energy efficient but will struggle to carry large chips from a planer, but will be great for dust from your sander.

So large pipes all the way won't carry the material, and small pipes will loose all your power in friction, as your chippy says the diameter should reduce away from the extractor. How much by is a matter for experimentation or calculation, and life's too short to get the calculator out.

I would recommend that at least a 6" main tube would help depending if it's really long, if it's over a few feet then you probably need to upgrade. Having seen Bob '9fingers' extractor yesterday with a 3hp/2.2kw fan and miles of ducting there's no shortage of power in your system, I hope he hasn't got any pets because that system could pull cat of the ground and send it into the vortex separator!

My extractor with a 4" hose is pretty weak too, but it has a flow 1/6th of yours. Thanks my tuppence worth

Aidan
 
Mark.R":29kmyq3c said:
My question is, do you think the extraction would improve if I changed the main arterial pipe coming from the extractor, from 4inch to 6 inch, with the spurs as they are in 4 inch? Or do you think this will not make much difference?

Mark.r

Mark, You need at least 6" 150mm and bring it all the way to your blastgates, Try looking for some Spyrolux tubing, lightweight, easy to use & cut, very professionals looking, no static issues.

I have some pics if you wish.

Hope this helps




..
 
Hi Mark
I had simlar problem untill i found that if the gate is opem evan by 1mm the loss of suction is great.so i check they are not jammed with dust.sorry if this something you have already elliminated.
Gary
 
Many thanks for the responses...
Aiden- your update certainly bares some info to consider. I was wondering if it would pay to keep my main pipe from the extractor in the existing 4 inch, and then branch off from that in the smaller diameter. Main reason is cost of the 6 inch with the connections (Y-junctions) then down to 4 inch. They would be quite a price would have thought.

Pro Shop--- could I take you up on the photos. Anything would help, and with a large scratch build kitchen project at home in April/May, I want to get this right now.

King Corragate--- I have the plastic blast gates, which don't have good access to clean the build of dust in the tracking of the actual gate itself. I know, one is not closing as tight as I would like it, so it would be great to know that such a small point could have such an effect on the suction. It would be nice and easy if it was down that!

For any forum users/readers who are going to be installing dust extraction (which is a must), it really needs to be thought out carefully. So absorb any info,suggestions and ideas that are being endorsed on this thread.

Keep it still coming, I want to know!
Thanks to those who have already replied.

Mark.r
 
Seems to me that you should separate the system to say one outlet (there are plastic fittings to block soil pipe)and see what amount of suck you get then work from there to find and fix the performance loss.
 
Pro shop;

Have just had a quick look at your photos. Excellent. I am now wondering wether to go over to the same as yours rather than using 4 inch underground piping.

With your system, it appears to be all the same diameter??? Could you clarify if this is the case or if not, what diameter is your main run from your extractor, and what diameter are your "spur" pipes off this to your individual tools??

Finally, what length is your main run, what extractor have you got and how good is your suction?

Hope this isnt to many questions!

Thanks

Mark. r
:wink:
 
Mark.R":32w7wpos said:
Pro shop;

With your system, it appears to be all the same diameter??? Could you clarify if this is the case or if not, what diameter is your main run from your extractor, and what diameter are your "spur" pipes off this to your individual tools??
Mark, The pipe is all the same diameter 150mm from the extractor all the way to the various blastgates, then it drops to 125mm flexi hose to the machine as these all have 120mm outlets.

Finally, what length is your main run, what extractor have you got and how good is your suction?
The main run is about 10mts. The extraction unit sucks at 3000cmh, which is about the same as yours I think, mines an AF22. The suction at the hose will pull your arm in :D :D .

If you decide to go down this route I have some more pics on the blastgates and on how to cut & fit the boot saddles instead of using the expensive Y's and with no loss of suction :).

......
 
I'd be really interested in seeing photos too. Any chance you could post them here for us all to see ?

Thanks,
Sam
 
I agree with Sam,

as a nosy parker I would also like to see the set up. To see how it compares with my 4 inch soil pipe set up, attached to my electra beckum dust extractor

GT
 
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