Advice concerning chisels

[Carl P]

Hi Everyone,

Unusually, thanks to good luck with carboot/ebay, I am in the rather odd position of not only having a chisel that's the right width, but also the possibility of being either bevel edged or straight sided. So the question is, straight or bevel edged for firmers - what are the advantages/disadvantages, and when does a bevel edged chisel become a dovetail chisel?

At the moment I have no intention of getting any mortice chisels, so I'm thinking of keeping straight sided firmers and dovetail chisels as a good compromise for small mortices, general hacking and fiddly stuff.

Any advice gratefully received,

Cheerio,

Carl

 

[Cheshirechappie]

With one or two exceptions, there isn't really much difference in function or performance between straight-sided and bevel-edged chisels. I think traditionally, joiners tended to use straight-sided firmers, and cabinetmakers leaned towards bevel-edged, but that wasn't a hard and fast rule by any means.

However, not all bevel-edged chisels are equal - some have finer lands than others, and are therefore capable of getting tighter into angled cuts such as those found on dovetails. Some 'bevel-edged' chisels (most modern ones) are little more than straight-sided firmers with the top corners ground off, leaving lands of 2 - 3 mm depth, so are rather less able to clean right into sharp angles. For most woodworking other than fine dovetail work, that doesn't really matter very much. As long as your chisels take and hold a sharp edge, and are comfortable and balanced to use, you'll get most things done just fine.

Since most modern b/e chisels don't have fine lands, some of the niche manufacturers have started to offer specialist 'dovetail chisels' specifically to allow the cleaning up of dovetails right into the angles. Very nice they are too - and with a price tag to match. However, a good quality vintage bevel-edged chisel with nice, fine lands will do that job just as well. You don't need that many, either - a couple of small ones, a couple of medium ones and a couple of biggish will cover all evenualities - say 1/8", 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 3/4" and 1 1/4". (Chris Schwarz in 'The Anarchist's Tool Chest' reckons you can do just about everything with these sizes, and some people say even this number is more than you really need.)

On morticing, there is a good argument for finding a proper mortice chisel. A bevel-edged chisel would not be ideal here - the thin edges would leave a raggy side to the mortice. It's perfectly true that mortices can be cut with firmer chisels, but sinking a mortice involves some fairly brutal chopping and (perhaps more pertinently) levering out of waste, which a heavy-duty specialist mortice chisel is built to do, but which can be rather too much for standard bench chisels, especially in the harder woods. Since much furniture work tends to use 1" sawn timber planed to about 3/4", and the recommended size of a mortice is about 1/3 stock thickness, you can do an awful lot of furniture work with only one mortice size - 1/4". If you propose to do joinery work such as replacement doors or window frames for the house, you'll need a couple of larger sizes - say 3/8" and 1/2" - but you can always pick those up off Ebay if you need them.

If I were starting again, I'd aim for about 5 or 6 fine-landed b/e chisels ranging from 1/8" to 1 1/4", a few straight-sided firmers for general chopping duties, and a 1/4" mortice chisel. I'd add to that collection a couple of out-cannel gouges and maybe a couple of long paring chisels, but only if and when I felt I needed them for a specific project.

Hope that helps!

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Cheshirechappie has pretty much covered it all. I am always baffled why BE chisels of the common thick land variety, are as popular as they are. They are neither fish nor fowl. Better to have a set of straight sided firmers, or registered mortice chisels and some really fine BE chisels. It is almost as if manufactures of BE chisels try and produce a general purpose tool, but are not good for mortices and cannot do dovetails without either modification or some other skew/fishtail chisel to actually complete the joint. Actually, I know the answer; chisels with fine lands are harder to make, so most don't really bother. Good firmer chisels should not have fallen out of favour, though, to the point that they are hardly manufactured now.

Mike.

 

[adzeman]

I certainly need the beveled chisel for working on dove tails and my large/old bevelled pairing chisel answers to its name of My favourite chisel.

 

[Carl P]

Cheshirechappie & Woodbrains,

Thank you very much for your replies, I have very little space so having more chisels than I need is not really an option. I suspected that the differences in use would be small so, straight sided firmers will stay as will a few dovetail chisels, and I will now also get a couple of mortice chisels of around 1/4", maybe more if and when the need arises. Thanks once again for your replies, really helped me to sort out my, sometimes conflicting, thoughts.

Cheerio,


Carl

 

[Jacob]

Firmers make good dovetail chisels if you shape the end a bit. In fact you only ever really need one - for small DTs and the corners of bigger DTs.
This was an ordinary old Sorby firmer about 3/16":

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

You haven't been tool fettling, have you, Jacob?

Actually this is a good mod and much the same as you would have to do to BE chisels with thick lands, to get them to work as they should. It is a pity that manufactures don't get them right. It can be fun to modify tools, but not everyone wants to do it. Ashley Iles do really good BE chisels which are as they should be, for a reasonable price. I cannot think of any others that are better for less money. Narex are almost there and very good value, though. Used ones are a good bet if modifying is something you like doing, if you cannot get what you need exactly.

Mike.

 

[Carl P]

Thanks once again - for some reason I hadn't realised that only the end of the chisel needs to be bevelled, I'm certainly not averse to modifying - especially the 2nd hand ones that have generally cost £1 or less, so something else to think about,

Cheerio,


Carl

 

[G S Haydon]

A very concise answer by CC!
I would like to defend the modern bevel edge chisels with heavy lands.
I'm not sure which is the largest segment of the chisel buying population? "joiner" "carpenter" "cabinet maker" "DIY". I sometimes think we can loose sight that not all people want to make very fine joinery or become very fine cabinet makers.
I think the modern beveled firmers with heavy lands make a very good general purpose tool. Almost all the "joinery" "carpentry" tradespeople I know have the beveled firmers and I never hear once a complaint of "my chisels don't work I wish I had smaller lands". I have only ever used modern beveled firmers and for the work I do they are excellent.
I also read a post somewhere which posed the question "why are metal strike caps added". Why not, if you don't like them don't buy them, they were never aimed at cabinet makers anyway (just wood butchers like me (hammer) ).
We are in a rich vein of tool options these days from the cheapest imported good to superb high end choices. Just because a chisel does not comply with a design from days of yore does not render them pointless. Simply it is for the buyer and user of the tool to weigh up what the want to use them for and buy accordingly.
I rest my case

 

[Jacob]

The main thing is to get free of the dental surgery idea of woodwork - piece of wood strapped down anaesthetised under a bright light, with an assistant passing specialised tools for every little job, taking them away and sharpening them in laboratory conditions, etc etc
In fact with woodwork almost everything can be done with very few tools, including dovetails. If your three chisels are all firmers a knife can be used for those difficult corners of a socket. But a narrow firmer with a shallow bevel 25º ish will probably do it anyway, if presented at a skewed angle. The cut might not look perfect but it's out of sight anyway.

There are not many jobs where a bevel edge is absolutely essential (can anyone think of an example?) and they can be managed without entirely. Sometimes they are convenient as you can see better what you are doing, but on the other hand they are a bit fragile at the corners of the edge and easily overheated if you grind them. Stick to firmers until you really need a bevel edge.

 

[Racers]

Or you could just buy your self some nice tools, you have to eat bland food.

Pete

 

[Jacob]

Pete, Mad Bad and Dangerous to Know
It doesn't have to scream to cut wood

I killed my dinner with karate
kick 'em in the face, taste the body
shallow work is the work that I do

do you want to sit at my table
my fighting fame is fabled
and fortune finds me fit and able
Or you could just buy your self some nice tools, you have to eat bland food.

Pete

Er, you have been going without food so that you can buy chisels? :lol:

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I don't know for certain but I'll bet my gonads that the proliferation of mass market bevel edge chisels is to do with their ease and cheapness to manufacture.

 

[Carl P]

For me this thread is not about the quality of individual tools, after all a good quality firmer that has been reground to have fine lands isa nice tool, although it may be easierto buy one already that shape, but what are the best uses for them. As is often the case, it seems that it is not clear cut - a firmer with or without bevel edges is a good general purpose chisel. I think, as I now have more chisels than I have space for, I'll stick with straight sided with a few bevel edged, some reground to give fine lands, sell the rest on evilbay and put the proceeds towards a couple of mortice chisels. The ones I have are an eclectic mix of Marples, Sorby, Ward, Footprint etc, some of which required a large investment of time to grind past pitting etc (ended up using a belt sander) but that's OK, I love fiddling, sorry, fettling old tools!

Cheerio,

Carl

 

[Corneel]

A very concise answer by CC!
I would like to defend the modern bevel edge chisels with heavy lands.
I'm not sure which is the largest segment of the chisel buying population? "joiner" "carpenter" "cabinet maker" "DIY". I sometimes think we can loose sight that not all people want to make very fine joinery or become very fine cabinet makers.
I think the modern beveled firmers with heavy lands make a very good general purpose tool. Almost all the "joinery" "carpentry" tradespeople I know have the beveled firmers and I never hear once a complaint of "my chisels don't work I wish I had smaller lands". I have only ever used modern beveled firmers and for the work I do they are excellent.

Completely right of course. But one wonders, why do Stanley, Bahco etc grind side bevels on their chisels, if it doesn't serve any purpose? They could save some costs, making straight sided firmers. I think it has alot to do with how the tool looks like. Carpenters, joiners and DIY-ers are nowadays used to the bevel edge look, so they won't buy a square one? Somewhere along the way, the bevel edged chisel became the norm and now they are always made like that.

 

[Jacob]

..... But one wonders, why do Stanley, Bahco etc grind side bevels on their chisels, if it doesn't serve any purpose? .....

It's what sells. People think bevel edges are better in some mysterious way and those old paring chisels certainly look nice! They equate finer chisels with finer woodwork. A little delusion - that's all there is to it I think.

 

[AndyT]

I don't want to go over old ground about grades of steel, but somewhere in all this is the difference between old steel and new.

Go back a century to when 'cast steel' was the norm. If you wanted an all-round chisel you needed something relatively thick - so you bought a square edged chisel. If you needed something lighter and more delicate you bought one where quite a lot of the steel had been forged or ground away - a bevel edged chisel. But you could not expect to take a heavy cut with it - you'd risk snapping the fairly brittle chisel.

Modern chisels are made of steel which is much tougher, so less likely to snap. You can have something strong enough to use as a general purpose chisel even if the edges have been ground back a bit. Overall, the thickness is a bit more than an old, delicate bevel edge, but almost all of the time the extra thickness won't be a problem. So we get true general purpose chisels tough enough to chop a big rebate but usable for common dovetails as well. Some people even chop mortices with them.

The only time I can think of that you really need a fine land on your bevel edged chisel is when you are cutting really skinny dovetails (as found on old drawer sides) where the chisel is the same width as the cut, so must cut right into the corners without being held at an angle.

 

[Corneel]

A "semi" beveled chisel, so you need to skew the chisel a bit less then an old fashioned firmer, in a dovetail corner. Sounds reasonable.

 

[Jacob]

......
The only time I can think of that you really need a fine land on your bevel edged chisel is when you are cutting really skinny dovetails (as found on old drawer sides) where the chisel is the same width as the cut, so must cut right into the corners without being held at an angle.

Old drawer DTs are always over cut with the saw - so the corners of pin holes, and the corners on the face of blind DT sockets (inside face of drawer side), don't need cleaning out. This leaves the inside corners of blind sockets but these are out of sight so a bit of untidy chiselling doesn't matter much, and in fact they are often untidy and undercut - I guess they didn't always have the correct chisels!

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

The over cutting on half blinds in drawers is more likely due to the speed they were done. There was a lot of piece work done in cabinet shops in the time when most of the 'ordinary' antiques we see were made. There was no time for slacking. I have a nice quality Victorian dressing table with 13 drawers in it. There is a lot of over cutting in it, but by no means on all the dovetails, or even a majority of them. It certainly wasn't done to make chiseling the waste easier, but I bet they were done at breakneck speed, though.

Skewing a chisel with heavy lands, in a half blind socket does not really work. The opposite corner of the chisel contacts the back of the socket before the corner we are trying to clear gets close. If chisels with heavy lands are all you have, a pair of skew chisels will be needed to get into the corners. Or else a custom grind as per Jacobs photo. It is amazing how tenacious the bits of waste in the corners can be at hanging on, unless attacked with a fine, sharp chisel, often from thee directions. It is also surprising how just a few crumbs of waste will stop the joint coming together.

Mike.