WARNING ABOUT USING SENECA ADAPTER WITH XL700 DOMINO

[Adam9453]

I want to warn others before they get hit by a big repair bill.
Using a seneca adapter (or ebay copy) with your festool XL700 domino can damage the gearbox according to festool and because its not a festool approved adapter it also voids your warranty.
Festool has advised me to replace the gearbox can cost upwards of £300 so is a very expensive mistake to make.
I wasn't aware of any issues using the seneca adapter with the XL700 to allow you to use the DF500 cutters so I had been using it quite happily until the alignment of the joints wasn't quite right.
I sent my XL700 in to festool under the warranty and obviously didn't expect a bill, whereas i've received a bill for fixing the issue with the gearbox and obviously been advised I cannot continue to use the seneca adapter.
So I now have to buy a df500 again if I want to continue to work with thinner thick sheet materials (18mm and less).
It was an eye opener for me and I wanted to share with others so you don't make the same mistake and get lumbered with a big bill.
P.s anyone selling a DF500

 

[flh801978]

What out of interest was the problem with alignment that the gearbox being repaired cured?

Ian

 

[flh801978]

Its also hard to imagine how using the adaptor can possibly damage the gearbox
Is the weight of the adaptor and a 500 series cutter much different to a 700 cutter?
Ian

 

[Adam9453]

I asked the same questions and I was told that the gearbox was out of alignment which festool say is caused by using the adapter. They said they are getting more and more xl700's coming in with this issue and on some it has completely wrecked the gearbox, hence they advised me that if i continued to use the adapter and it wrecked the gearbox I'd be looking at a big bill to repair it.
They are currently running further tests on mine as they suspect it may be the fence that was causing the alignment issue I was finding.
I had a df500 before and I didn't have any problems with that so logically there had to be an issue with the tool.
I'm glad I found out the adapter was damaging it now rather than later as in a years time the damage could have been much more expensive to fix. Just annoying because I only upgraded to the xl700 because I hadn't read of anyone having issues using the Seneca adapter.
I haven't weighed the cutters and adapter to see if there's much of a difference but from memory the adapter did have some weight to it as it's a solid lump of machined metal.
I'll be selling on the seneca adapter and buying a df500 so i don't have problems going forwards.

 

[Distinterior]

Have you spoken to Seneca about this problem...?

I wonder if they are aware that the use of their adaptor voids the Festool warranty?

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I would tread very carefully here. Festool have a vested interest in the adaptor "failing" because it will clearly be preventing sales of their tools if people can make do with only one. Now I have no evidence whatsoever to support this and therefore maybe being disingenuous to Festool ie it's pure conspiracy theory. However, it doesn't make logical sense to me ie how would gearbox damage be caused by the adaptor and therefore I do think the maker should be informed so they can have their tek team look at it.

It may well be genuine and festool do seem a decent bunch so probably is, but worthy of some digging I suspect.

 

[Adam9453]

No I haven't contacted Seneca about it as only found out this afternoon but I'll drop them an email as I think they ought to make buyers aware of the risk.
I think festool say if you use any tool with a non festool accessory then it may void the warranty.
I should point out festool have been very reasonable about this issue with me as they have only charged me a relatively small fee for fixing the issue caused by using the Seneca adapter, they have agreed to fix the alignment issue under warranty and they agreed to continue my warranty providing I don't use the Seneca adapter anymore. This was a big relief to me as the xl700 is a significant investment as you know.
I'm just hoping that once I get it back the alignment issue is fixed and I can get on with the list of jobs the wife has for me

 

[Adam9453]

I agree festool have a vested interest in people not using the adapter but if people are risking their warranty they need to be aware so they can judge whether they are willing to risk it.
I was more concerned that it was apparently damaging the tool, assuming that's true (which I think it is from my conversation with festool) I could have gone on using it for say the next two years and then suddenly the gearbox packs up completely and I'm looking at £300+ to fix it.
Today's fix cost me circa £55 including carriage and vat, so as far as I'm concerned I dodged a bullet by finding out now.

 

[flh801978]

When the adaptor is fitted does it touch anywhere where the genuine 700 series bit wouldn't? As diameter looks a touch bigger
Thinking the fence area when plunged thereby straining the gearbox
Ian

 

[Nelsun]

Thanks for the heads up and sorry to hear you learned the hard way. I had pondered getting the adapter and flogging the 500 but not now.

 

[Simou1]

Thank you for the warning Adam. I am intrigued as to how Festool knew you had used the Seneca adapter ( unless of course you Fessed up to Festool!) but their response has been more than generous and like you say, they can void a warranty should someone decide to use a third party accessory.

I have not read any reports regarding the Seneca adaptor failing and they do have an excellent reputation for the engineering quality of the products they make for Festools and others. However, I do take my hat off to a firm who can sell a (undoubtedly very well machined) threaded bolt for £70ish!, or about 10% of the cost of a brand new 700 XL.

I bought the 500 when it was first introduced to the UK and have never had a problem. Based on that I bought a 700 yesterday from the excellent Axminster Tools in Warrington and see that the same engineering excellence of the 500 has been carried over to its big brother. It really is a beautifully made machine.

 

[pike]

I'd also like to know how they knew you'd used the seneca? Also what exactly went wrong? Mortises in the wrong place?

 

[Adam9453]

I sent the tool in with the adapter and 5mm cutter fitted so it was obvious that I was using it. I wasn't aware there was any issue with warranty and the adapter until they told me.
As far as I can tell the adaptor didn't make contact with anything but it moves so quickly it's hard to be sure.
As I said the issue I had was alignment related and I don't think related to the gearbox issue, I think they saw the adapter fitted and assumed it must have damaged the gearbox more seriously as they have found on others. They advised me they had 3 xl700's in this week with gearbox issues relating to using a Seneca type adapter.
I had a long conversation with them about it as I was confident the gearbox wasn't the cause of the issue I was having. The issue I was having was that joints weren't aligned when using the tool in different orientations, i.e. Plunging into the edge of a board and then into the face of the adjoining board. I was getting a step of circa 0.4mm whereas normally all my joints with a domino are perfectly flush.
If I used the tool in the same orientation, i.e. Into the edge of both pieces then the joints were fine.
I did a lot of checking and testing and found the tool must be at fault as I eliminated everything else.
Hopefully this helps others avoid the same problem

 

[custard]

The issue I was having was that joints weren't aligned when using the tool in different orientations, i.e. Plunging into the edge of a board and then into the face of the adjoining board. I was getting a step of circa 0.4mm whereas normally all my joints with a domino are perfectly flush.

Have you calibrated your Domino, like this,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLAfpRxihqw

Festool are clear that calibrating the cursor (and also the pins/paddles) is a user job. It's approximately set up at the factory (a bit better in my experience on the 700 than on the 500) but Festool won't stand behind that initial calibration, especially as it can drift out of calibration over time.

 

[custard]

normally all my joints with a domino are perfectly flush.

Incidentally, even with endless tinkering I don't believe "perfectly flush" is consistently achievable, nor would I expect it to be.

I can reliably get better than 0.1mm. But I can't achieve, with any degree of consistency, a surface that is absolutely flush to the touch. The minute step is probably in the order of one or two thou, so not detectable by eye but just detectable by touch, and easily corrected with one pass of a finely set plane or even with abrasive paper. That's a great result, however it's not perfectly flush and I'm sceptical that the tolerances inherent in biscuit manufacture, cutter wear, user error, etc would ever make "perfectly flush" consistently achievable.

 

[Adam9453]

hi Custard
I agree there is certainly a tolerance to how flush the joint is but with my DF500 I achieved joints consistently that were flush to the touch. This was on an oak veneered MDF project so they had to be right as I couldn't plane the joints flush afterwards.
The issue is not the left to right position of the mortices, the issue is effectively the vertical position of the mortice. If I cut both mortices with the tool horizontal then the joints were flush however if I cut the mortices into the edge of one board with the tool horizontal and then cut the mortice into the face of the second board with the tool vertical, thats when I had consistent problems. There was a noticeable step (as I say approx 0.4mm) which is far beyond acceptable for me. I assumed that I was doing something wrong so I ran numerous tests and checks to find out what was causing the issue.
I came to the conclusion the tool must have a problem. My strong suspicion is that there is an issue with the fence and festool seem to concur.
I will report back once I hear more from them, hopefully later today.

 

[pike]

Would a domiplate help this? Another Seneca product. Only if you're using 1/2" and 3/4" material.

 

[Adam9453]

Would a domiplate help this? Another Seneca product. Only if you're using 1/2" and 3/4" material.

No i'm afraid not, I need to reference off the fence.
The domino should put the mortice in the same distance from the fence whether the tool is horizontal or vertical, mine wasn't which is why I sent it to be repaired.
My old DF500 did the same job with no issue so it was clearly something wrong with my new XL700 (only had it a matter of months) and festool are on the case so I'm confident it will get resolved and I can get back to happy jointing.

 

[pike]

Sorry I forgot the domiplate is only for the 500 anyway.

Might have to get my 700 out and check

 

[Adam9453]

I spoke to festool again today and they have advised the problem was all down to the issue with the gearbox alignment apparently. They said they have tested it and all is working as it should now. I expect to receive the tool back tomorrow so I will carry out my own tests to see if its performing as I expect now.
They advised that apparently because the xl700 has a significantly more powerful motor its causes issues in the gearbox because its not designed to work with the weight of the smaller cutters and adapter, as far as I understand they matched the mass/size of the xl700 cutters with the gearbox and motor power so it all works in balance.
From what Festool said, if people keep sending their tools in with this issue then festool will send out some kind of mailshot or press notice alerting owners to the issue of using these kind of adapters to stop people falling foul of the problem.
They have obviously been very understanding so far but I imagine they will take a harder stance on it if people continue to use them once warned.
Its worth noting I expect this applies to other machines like using a non festool blade in your TS55, for the cost difference I think i'm just gonna stick with festool parts/accessories and give myself an easy life.
Thanks for everyones comments and suggestions regarding the issues I've experienced.