Working for free for learning and experience?
- Thread starter FH93
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topchippyles":3macprhs said:
I live in Telford, Shropshire
Steve Maskery":3macprhs said:A skilled teacher is going to want at least £30 per hour for their time. An unskilled (yet!) labourer costs just minimum wage (and is probably not worth even that, to start with). There is a huge disparity in term of time one can/must give the other, in order to get a sensible deal.
Yeah, I figured. I'll ask anyway, as I don't mind giving free labour even if it's just cleaning and lugging stuff about, and just shadowing, and once I've done the small course on carpentry and joinery, maybe I can help more. I don't expect to get paid anytime soon, but I plan on practicing and learning until I'm good enough to get paid for my work.
Trainee neophyte
Established Member
FH93":33emfdiu said:
It is. Horribly difficult. That's the point. However, what you need in the meantime is some sawhorses to actually put things on. I quite like these: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DtizUSUgUG4
https://woodgears.ca/sawhorse/
Trevanion
Greatest Of All Time
People out here in the West are quite apprehensive about taking on "free" labour after a pair of lads were working for "work experience" under assumed names for a company for just about a month, once they'd managed to get door codes and locations of valuables they ransacked the place one night when no-one was around. As far as I know, they never found them or the stolen equipment.
That being said, pretty much all the long-term jobs in the trade I've had so far happened because I worked for free for a week or two to get a feel for who I was working for and for them to get a feel for me as an employee.
I think your best course of action would be calling in with joiners around your area (Avoid the bigger companies, they're terrible to work for from experience), not on the phone or via email but go into the workshop, show that you're keen to learn and explain your situation and that you plan on doing a course, etc... Eventually you'll find someone willing to take you on. Employers should supply you with PPE, but buy yourself a pair of good ear defenders like 3M's Peltor Optime III and a good dust mask like the Elipse P3, most places will have their own pool of tools for everyone to use so perhaps don't worry about that too much yet, just make yourself handy for holding things, moving things, tidying up, menial jobs etc...
In your spare time, try and glean as much information about what you're doing as you can. There's plenty of excellent youtube videos on beginner woodworking, plenty of excellent books to be had on more specialised subjects. You can do ALOT worse than ask questions here, there's an excellent hivemind of people of various skill levels and various backgrounds here and you can usually find an answer for anything from "What tool do you think is best for this?" to "Do I actually need a TV license?".
Best of luck, hopefully you can make something of it.
That being said, pretty much all the long-term jobs in the trade I've had so far happened because I worked for free for a week or two to get a feel for who I was working for and for them to get a feel for me as an employee.
I think your best course of action would be calling in with joiners around your area (Avoid the bigger companies, they're terrible to work for from experience), not on the phone or via email but go into the workshop, show that you're keen to learn and explain your situation and that you plan on doing a course, etc... Eventually you'll find someone willing to take you on. Employers should supply you with PPE, but buy yourself a pair of good ear defenders like 3M's Peltor Optime III and a good dust mask like the Elipse P3, most places will have their own pool of tools for everyone to use so perhaps don't worry about that too much yet, just make yourself handy for holding things, moving things, tidying up, menial jobs etc...
In your spare time, try and glean as much information about what you're doing as you can. There's plenty of excellent youtube videos on beginner woodworking, plenty of excellent books to be had on more specialised subjects. You can do ALOT worse than ask questions here, there's an excellent hivemind of people of various skill levels and various backgrounds here and you can usually find an answer for anything from "What tool do you think is best for this?" to "Do I actually need a TV license?".
Best of luck, hopefully you can make something of it.
woodbloke66
Established Member
Absolutely; same here. When I started working in 1967 as a Plessey apprentice, we had to buy our own tool kit, so I made it a rule to get hold of one decent quality tool every week when I got paid. That said, I still have my Eclipse hack saw, combination pliers, instrument wire cutters and snipe nosed pliers racked out in the workshop today, so now they've been in more or less constant use for 53 years. The only time I nearly lost the wire cutters was when No.1 son 'borrowed' them to cut guitar strings...words were had in his shell likeSteve Maskery":38lo95cv said:
- RobTrevanion":1onlkrnl said:
Well the first place I'm going to go to, which is the closest, is a small operation that seems to only have 2 workers, but there could be a couple more maybe. The others around here don't seem to be very big, but I'd have to take a better look, but that's pretty much how I planned on going about it. I'm gonna head up a little after 09:00 tomorrow, firm handshake and all that, and hope for the best.
El Barto":3d2dc18y said:
But it'll sure as hell make your life a lot easier.
You don't need to be too fussy, just get on with making your antepenultimate bench.
Lonsdale73
Established Member
I've had a number of people approach me, offering to work for free in order to gain experience. One of the first things I (try to) teach them is NEVER work for free because it then makes it much harder to charge a sensible rate for your work.
Some have been upfront about their intentions; one listened and is now better qualified than I am and eaning a better living from it. Another was actually better at it but lacked application, is too easily swayed by family and friends and screws up one opportunity after another.
Others aren't so honest, claim they're 'only a hobbyist', one who wants to improve their skills. So they pick your brains, learn (some of) your skills then replicate everything you do but at a fraction of the price and with an even smaller percentage of the quality,
Some have been upfront about their intentions; one listened and is now better qualified than I am and eaning a better living from it. Another was actually better at it but lacked application, is too easily swayed by family and friends and screws up one opportunity after another.
Others aren't so honest, claim they're 'only a hobbyist', one who wants to improve their skills. So they pick your brains, learn (some of) your skills then replicate everything you do but at a fraction of the price and with an even smaller percentage of the quality,
Lonsdale73":omrwv0xh said:
The only reason I'd be working for free, is because I have zero experience at the moment, and I asking someone to pay me for what I can currently offer leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I do see what you mean though, and I wouldn't make things for people for free, but when it comes to helping around the joinery, the learning and experience would be payment enough, until I learn enough to be up to scratch.
If I'm making things for people myself, I would always charge, because I'm a tight git and charge people for my services whenever I can, cause I ain't rolling in the cash.
Lonsdale73
Established Member
FH93":18gy8iw0 said:
As with any other pursuit, read up on the subject, watch endless youtube videos and practice. If you get stuck there's always someone on here happy to offer guidance.
Flipside as well, you might find companies reluctant to entertain you. First, they're a business, not a school. H&S restrictions might make it a non-starter and, like me, they might be wary of letting someone learn not only their skills but also their client base and promptly undercut them.
Lonsdale73":16qxui22 said:
I figured that would be the case anyway. Being able to get experience and learn in a workplace was always best case scenario, and I've signed up for CITB as well, and hopefully something will come of that.
If I don't manage to get into a joinery to learn, or a proper apprenticeship, I'll probably just have to go and stick with full self learning, making things for family and friends to get more experience, obviously charging them though.
are there any charitable opportunities that you could look at? for example, heritage railways, working historical workshops that make things, re-enactments that do pole turning and other production etc.
Orraloon
Established Member
Take a look for Men's Sheds near you. Become a member and you will have access to tools and machines and a large group of guys with tons of experience in all kinds of trades. They will also be keen to teach what they know. Your working for free will be making stuff for charity but they find time for their own projects too.
Regards
John
Regards
John
MikeG.
Established Member
Trainee neophyte":1omvd6ij said:
Come on guys, you exaggerate. The first one of those was made by my son in law, who is a complete novice. The most difficult thing about it is marking up.
MikeG.
Established Member
FH93":3hzceevs said:
I'm absolutely certain that you won't get offered a freebie position in a professional workshop. For a start, there's all sorts of employment law obstacles, minimum wage, and so on. You also won't be able to charge friends and family either, for a while, but you should be able to get them to cover your material costs. That's how I learned, although I was my primary client for a few years. It's also how I built up my tool collection........I'd get a new tool for each project. I'm talking one chisel a time, one file at a time, one screwdriver at a time. That way you learn to use each one properly, rather than being faced with a workshop full of new kit, none of which you've got a clue about.
Orraloon":2v4gaxx1 said:
Yeah, another fella mentioned that to me, but thanks. I didn't know something like that existed, but it seems like it'd be a great idea.
MikeG.":2v4gaxx1 said:
Well I'm going to ask anyway, on the off chance, but like I said, it's a best case scenario.
(Just asked, and the guy said he's currently got two young lads on as apprentices, but one is never gonna be a joinery so he's going to have to restructure. Since I have a full driving licence it'll help, probably because the young lads don't drive maybe, but he said he'll let me know if he can take me on. So fingers crossed)
Got to think of something to make for the joinery course I'm doing, as I get to work on a project of my choice. Should probably see if I can think up something relatively complicated so I can get taught in that short time more information about different techniques.
Myfordman
AKA 9Fingers
Maybe a toolchest? Depends if the place doing the tuition has a bit of machinery that you can use to prepare the stock whilst you are there and then take the parts home to do some of the work and bring it back for the next stage etc
Trainee neophyte
Established Member
It may have been made by a complete novice, but the novice had Mr Miagi at his elbow, which rather helps. That being said, I may have been exaggerating a little in a spirit of empathy and commiseration.MikeG.":3eu7apek said:
I have been assuming that your design doesn't do well without a level floor, so until I get some concrete poured, I won't have an opportunity to find out. Hopefully soon. (I say that a lot, about too many projects - far too much wishful thinking in my life)
Deadeye
Established Member
Hello
I just realised I've been doing a bit of woodworking just about every day for 2 years now... and I'm still very much a beginner. I have done a short handtools course and I've asked endless questions one here, which folk have been *brilliant* at helping with. Advice from the knowledgeable is the single biggest thing that's helped me learn. Otherwise it's easy to get stuck.
Youtube is fine - but 90% is entertainment not education.
Some books are ok (although I've yet to find one where the pictures/diagrams are properly clear).
2 years in and I certainly wouldn't be able to sell my work (although I'm not aiming to so that's ok), but I am now allowed to bring things in the house - a bed, a bookcase, a blanket box.
If you have a little money I'd go for a properly rated dust mask, an ok chisel (secondhand), an oilstone, a decent saw (new), good lighting in your shed. Oh, and decent timber to work with (softwood for sawhorses is fine - but not all softwood is created equal as I have learned the hard way!).
If you can bear it, I would develop skills and toolset as a hobbyist before trying to pursue it as a career.
Mens shed is a good idea - the local one here is very active and there are some deeply experienced folk there.
I just realised I've been doing a bit of woodworking just about every day for 2 years now... and I'm still very much a beginner. I have done a short handtools course and I've asked endless questions one here, which folk have been *brilliant* at helping with. Advice from the knowledgeable is the single biggest thing that's helped me learn. Otherwise it's easy to get stuck.
Youtube is fine - but 90% is entertainment not education.
Some books are ok (although I've yet to find one where the pictures/diagrams are properly clear).
2 years in and I certainly wouldn't be able to sell my work (although I'm not aiming to so that's ok), but I am now allowed to bring things in the house - a bed, a bookcase, a blanket box.
If you have a little money I'd go for a properly rated dust mask, an ok chisel (secondhand), an oilstone, a decent saw (new), good lighting in your shed. Oh, and decent timber to work with (softwood for sawhorses is fine - but not all softwood is created equal as I have learned the hard way!).
If you can bear it, I would develop skills and toolset as a hobbyist before trying to pursue it as a career.
Mens shed is a good idea - the local one here is very active and there are some deeply experienced folk there.
