Woodworking Dust and COPD

[Random Orbital Bob]

I read somewhere recently about a chap who was suffering from COPD who had been in the wood working industry all his life. I cant remember or now find the source so wanted to do a bit of a straw poll here to see what people's experiences are:

My sense is that to actually develop COPD you would have needed to expose your lungs to a lot of fine dust over a great many years. I guess the piece got me wondering about how much risk weekend warriors are exposing themselves to with poor DX. I think the thought triggered after I heard the news on Friday about the recent lung cancer research just published. For anyone who missed the report, genetic researchers have just uncovered highly detailed evidence of the specific genes which get damaged by cigarette smoking. Basically, the more you smoke (smoked) the greater the damage, it's permanent and the more genes that got damaged, the greater your risk of them becoming cancerous as you age. What was unusual about the research is the fact the damage smoking causes is permanent. The previously accepted medical advice was the longer you've given up for, the better off you are. I guess in terms of future damage that's true, I think whats news is that anyone who's ever smoked has damaged their lungs in direct proportion to the quantity they smoked. That rather sobering piece of research got me thinking about the hazards dust represents (especially the like of MDF and some exotics).

So anyone have any real life experience of direct links between wood working dust and COPD or indeed any other health hazards?

 

[Woodmonkey]

This report I saw recently suggests there is little evidence to show wood dust causes copd, although links have been shown with asthma.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... g-2015.pdf

 

[n0legs]

It's not the best of times for us down here.
Yesterday was the first anniversary of my mothers funeral, she had died on the 22nd October. We had a firework party, just the family, the same as we did a year ago. Brilliant time to be honest, a lot of laughs and a good drink. Though I don't recommend BBQing in this weather.

Fibrosing Alveolitis killed mum. Not quite the same as COPD but in the same ball park.

I've seen the results first hand. Protect yourselves.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

This report I saw recently suggests there is little evidence to show wood dust causes copd, although links have been shown with asthma.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... g-2015.pdf

That's interesting.....very little evidence in fact and very few (if any) UK cases. Encouraging.

 

[siggy_7]

For me, it's a question of how much of a risk do you want to take with your health? If you can afford half decent power tools for wood working, £100 or so for a vacuum should be within your reach. If you are dabbling with dust producing machinery, a couple of hundred quid on a high volume extractor and filter shouldn't be unattainable. For these sums of money, how much of a gamble are you willing to take on your health? Coupled with the improved working conditions, it seems a no brainer to me. Health advice is notorious for changing as new evidence comes to light, but once you've breathed in all that dust you can't retrospectively undo it. Decent extraction now guarantees you won't have these problems from your hobby in years to come.

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[RogerS]

And don't forget. The thing is that you can't see the dust that does the damage.

 

[sunnybob]

I find it hard to understand any one who does not protect their lungs.
I grew up in London through the 50's and 60's. and often couldnt get to school because of the green smogs that became "pea souper". We literally could not see our hands outstretched in front of us.Tens of thousands of people died because they were breathing that stuff. Thats historical fact.
How many 100s of 1000's (probably millions) of people are proven to have died of lung cancer (my father amongst them)

Is someone STILL saying that it cant happen to them?

 

[Woodmonkey]

Just to be clear, I would never suggest that breathing in dust is harmless. Extraction and protection ie masks are so easy to obtain and relatively cheap it would be bonkers not to use them, I was just responding to Bob's specific question about Copd.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Just to be clear, I would never suggest that breathing in dust is harmless. Extraction and protection ie masks are so easy to obtain and relatively cheap it would be bonkers not to use them, I was just responding to Bob's specific question about Copd.

Yes I got that Woody and I thought your response was an excellent one ie it was evidence based. That's not to poo poo the anecdotal messages about valuing your lungs from the other contributors, I also share the view about only having one pair of lungs. But I was interested to see if there was a known and proven connection to COPD (ie not anecdotal).

My setup is a little half baked in many respects and oscillates between vacuum type machines dedicated to major dust producers like the planar/thicknesser and personal gear like a Trend airshield and the trusty 3M 7500 which I live in when sanding dry turnings (with the vac DX on)

The fine dust produced in turning is I think the most risky in my setup and I've been toying with getting one of those cylindrical Microclene filters that most turners hang at around head height.

My Father also died of lung cancer at 59 (an age I'm rapidly approaching) although in fairness he was smoking woodbines in the trenches in WWII. Apparently they make senior service look like fresh air!

 

[lurker]

I am qualified to to perform technical checks on workplaces for respirable dust to national standards.
I can sample using a variety of scientific techniques using fancy equipment backed by Lab analysis.
A meduim sized professional wood shop could be looking at a £10-20 k bill for a full report.

HOWEVER they are all needless
Clean a horizontal surface at about mouth level
If its dusty after 2 working days you have a problem that needs fixing

 

[wallace]

My mother in law worked in the textile industry which is renowned for copd but also a smoker for 50 years. She has it but is just living in denial because her inhalers help a lot. We have tried to explain for the last 5 years that she should stop smoking but all we get is I'm fine. Just waiting for the day when she needs permanent oxygen.
I worked in a pallet factory for 18 years where dust monitoring would be done in winter to keep the levels down. In the last few years of me being employed by them I became safety rep and got myself educated. I got the company to do the dust testing during the summer months. It was 5 times the legal limit. There solution was to get a garden pump sprayer and spray water every so often. I later did some research into the pneumatic tools we used which were Cengar recip saws lubricated by constant drip feed of hydraulic oil. Breathing in the mist is carcinogenic, within a year the company went to electric saws. And within another year I was made redundant. Because of my time their I have a huge intolerance to dust.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

[

My Father also died of lung cancer at 59 (an age I'm rapidly approaching) although in fairness he was smoking woodbines in the trenches in WWII. Apparently they make senior service look like fresh air![/quote]

I worked 40+ years ago with steel erector who chain smoked Capstan Full Strength. Because he spent most of his 12 - 14 hour working days leaning over the work in hand, the smoke always went straight into his eyes which of course made his eyed water badly. The nasties in the smoke combined with the tears actually burned raw tracks from corners of his eyes to his upper lip.

 

[ColeyS1]

A meduim sized professional wood shop could be looking at a £10-20 k bill for a full report.

HOWEVER they are all needless
Clean a horizontal surface at about mouth level
If its dusty after 2 working days you have a problem that needs fixing

I'm not sure my working area would be noticeably dusty after two days but there is dust that sits on surfaces after a while. I'd say the majority of that comes from routing when extraction isn't as effective- like routing edges of work. I've got an air filter to help with the dust in the air, but your simple method of identifying a problem has made me reconsider.
When routing edges where the dust is chucked around, as well as having the air filter going, I should probably wear a mask aswell for good measure.


Coley

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Clean a horizontal surface at about mouth level
If its dusty after 2 working days you have a problem that needs fixing

Ouch! :shock:

 

[tomatwark]

There is also another point to consider that a commercial set up are supposed to get their extraction systems tests every 12-14 months, this is the law.

I suspect that a lot of the extraction units and set ups the weekend warriors use would fail hands down if a LEV test was carried out, so you need to decide on what risks you want to take, just because the dust is being pulled away from the machine it does not mean that it is being kept in by what every filter is on the other end.

It does not matter if you are a business like mine with 7 of us making dust or a weekend warrior in their single garage or shed making dust the risks are EXACTLY the same.

Even in the 1980's when I was an apprentice we just had what was known as a Martindale mask, a piece of cotton wool held in place with a piece of aluminium.

After 30 years I now have no sense of smell left and get chest infections a lot more than I used to, probably from not being as careful as I should of been.

 

[lurker]

I should probably wear a mask as well for good measure.
Coley

Its not rocket science is it?

 

[lurker]

There is also another point to consider that a commercial set up are supposed to get their extraction systems tests every 12-14 months, this is the law.

I suspect that a lot of the extraction units and set ups the weekend warriors use would fail hands down if a LEV test was carried out, so you need to decide on what risks you want to take, just because the dust is being pulled away from the machine it does not mean that it is being kept in by what every filter is on the other end.

It does not matter if you are a business like mine with 7 of us making dust or a weekend warrior in their single garage or shed making dust the risks are EXACTLY the same.

Even in the 1980's when I was an apprentice we just had what was known as a Martindale mask, a piece of cotton wool held in place with a piece of aluminium.

After 30 years I now have no sense of smell left and get chest infections a lot more than I used to, probably from not being as careful as I should of been.

If it wasnt that I prefer to have an interesting job I could make a fortune doing statuatory LEV testing. :shock:
For the non commercial amongst us, just use a bigger capacity system than you think you need.
Be aware chip extraction & dust extraction are different kettles of fish and there is price to pay trying to do both at the same time.
Monitor with the "Lurker dusty finger test".

 

[ColeyS1]

I should probably wear a mask as well for good measure.
Coley

Its not rocket science is it?

Nope. Just heavy, awkward and always feels slightly clammy no matter how many times I rinse it under the tap.

Coley

 

[lurker]

What mask are you using?

 

[ColeyS1]

Not 100% sure to be honest but found this pic of me recently using it (from a wip)

I bought it originally for spraying but decided having a filter for normal dust might be useful. I guess some decent disposables would be better than nothing at all.
Coley

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