Who would buy a "Pentz" style Cyclone for £395

[davy_owen_88]

Come now, you're an engineer. You know that such things are specified in the most favourable looking way for the manufacturer. The bag they specify the throughput with is almost certainly a squeaky-clean one that has never been used or clogged in the slightest. And the one used for the one micron spec will equally likely have a nice thick coating of dust on the inside to give it a leg up.

That's just how specifications work, isn't it?

Infact, most extractors are rated with 'free airflow'... meaning no bags, no ducting hence no resistance.

Anyway, back on topic... I'm definately interested in the cyclone if you can make it 18" (I don't see why the company your paying to do this can't make them in different sizes... keeping the customer happy and all that). Otherwise, I think I'll pass and make my own.

Most who follow my plans and direction start with the cyclone top cylinder diameter, at 18". This is near the ideal compromise size in terms of giving enough separation and still not causing too much resistance while still providing ample airflow with a 3 HP motor turning a 14" impeller to generate about 1900 CFM.

 

[Barry Burgess]

Davy I agree with you the 450mm(+/-17.75") would be the best option if you have the ceiling height. You do realise that you will have to build you own impellor case?
Barry

 

[davy_owen_88]

Davy I agree with you the 450mm(+/-17.75") would be the best option if you have the ceiling height. You do realise that you will have to build you own impellor case?
Barry

The charnwood W792 has a 350mm / 13-3/4" impellor, but I'm going to look around for a blower unit on its own first. A 14" impellor is pretty much the limit for a 3HP motor, and I can't find a motor above 3HP in 240V.

But with 6" diameter (well layed out) ducting and minimal back pressure from the 40m^2 of filter material it should be sufficient.

As for the ceiling height, if the motor is side mounted, then even with a 30" barrel it will fit under a 7 foot ceiling. Shouldn't be too much of a problem, just set it up like yours.

 

[Barry Burgess]

Davy with the 18", the outlet to the impellor is 9" if you are going to follow Pentz. - How do you get this to work with the 6" impellor inlet?????
If you open up the inlet you have to also open up the outlet and this causes a resonating sound that I found very difficult to get rid of.
Barry

 

[davy_owen_88]

I hadn't thought of that.

Opening up the inlet and outlet might well cause the motor to burn up...

I either find a motor that has a 9" inlet/outlet or I just use a reducer from 9" to 6". Its not going to add very much resistance if i keep it a very short run.. about 14 inches.


EDIT:

I am taking your advice and upgrading to a 9" outlet. That will make the cyclone outlet 9" going into a blower inlet that is only 6". Is it ok to reduce the cyclone outlet right at the top of the cyclone so the blower can be top mounted?

Yes, the key here is to make sure that it is big enough to not create a fast airflow out. Otherwise it will cause the incoming air to "turn the corner" and greatly reduce separation efficiency. You can make for less turbulence if you make a taper. I made one from MDF to make a smoother transition. Most of the time, I just take off the face plate of the blower and the 9” cyclone outlet ends up defining a 9” blower inlet.

Seems like aslong as the outlet that is inside the cyclone is 1/2 the diameter then its OK.

 

[Barry Burgess]

Davy its when you get down and dirty that you discover what goes on - I have looked at Pentz's site more times than I can remember - but you have to make it work??
Barry

 

[davy_owen_88]

Davy its when you get down and dirty that you discover what goes on - I have looked at Pentz's site more times than I can remember - but you have to make it work??
Barry

Yup, I think I'll need to give another donation to Bill for using so much of his bandwidth :lol:

I've read through Bill's site so much, but theres always something I've missed, because the amount of info on tap is just unbelievable.

I'm not looking forward to making the cyclone myself, I don't have the tools, experience or the 'get-up-and=go' to do it, which is why if I can get it made for me for a reasonable price I will do that.

I'm still trying to think of things I havn't thought of yet... which is proving difficult :shock:

 

[Anonymous]

With 3 saying "yes" and 9 "may bes" where are we with getting this built.

I need 10 firm orders before this chap will start as the price is based on a batch run.

How should we proceeed ?????


Francis

 

[RogerS]

If you open up the inlet you have to also open up the outlet and this causes a resonating sound that I found very difficult to get rid of.
Barry

Barry, I wonder if you effectively created an organ pipe? One trick I learned about double glazing was to have the two panes of different thickness as that prevented them resonating and transferring noise from one to the other. Just a thought

 

[Anonymous]

[
I have no issues with dust collection and no need for a cyclone as my £100 (+£30ish for fine bag) DE collects it all from my large machines. Down to 1 micro meter.

Tony from an earlier thread a number of people asked for the details of your bag - which we did not get. I have been unable to find a bag that could get anywhere close to your specs.
Barry

Barry this is not true. Just because you are a cyclone convert does not make the rest of us liars, or wrong.

I posted all info I have in reponse to the request:
Axminster bag rated at 1um. It cost just over £30 and just fits my Charnwood extractor. I do not have the receipt (why keep one for a bag once fitted and working????) and the order was placed over the phone with a salesman who went down to the demo machine area to measure all that he had in an effort to find one that fits my DE, thus I have no idea of part number etc. becuase he took care of everything for me.

I would expect all 1um Axminster bags to be exactly the same construction and materials.

ALL of this was posted before when the request was made

On my system, the only dust that escapes into the atmosphere does so from the blade edge and above the wood where the extractor cannot suck.
This is one thing that will also be the case with cyclones.

The plain fact is that standard DEs with 1um bags collect all the rubbish my machines can produce - even MDF dust.

Bean bought the same bag for his DE, maybe he has more info

 

[Mike.C]

Francis,

With 3 saying "yes" and 9 "may bes" where are we with getting this built.

I need 10 firm orders before this chap will start as the price is based on a batch run.

How should we proceeed ?????

I was one of the maybe's, but the only trouble is, dust collection is a black art to me and before I spend another £395 I am going to need convincing that buying one of these cyclones will greatly improve my system.

I have always been impressed by what Bill Pentz claims his cyclones can do, but there is a huge difference between this and seeing it work in my workshop.

At the moment I have 100mm spirolux metal ducting running around the complete 27ft X 13ft workshop, which has branchs to 7 different machines.

I have another 27ft X 13ft upstairs which i have stopped using at the moment because I am going to fit a new staircase in the not to distance future, which is when I am going to need to either send another 1 or 2 branches up there, have a separate system, or just a mobile extractor.

Connected to this system I have a Elektra Beckum SPA1100, Scheppach HA2600 (with their fine filter) and a twin motor Camvac CGV386 dust extractor. I also have a Axminster AFS2000 workshop air filter hanging from the ceiling and I use a Trend Airshield 90% of the time.

The Elektra Beckum and the Scheppach are connected at the same time to one end of the system , and the Camvac is wheeled around and used on the router table and scroll saw etc, and as extra support (with a possibly hose) on any other of the machine's if i need it (for instance if I am cutting up some MDF on the Scheppach table saw I will set the hose to catch what ever may escape from the hose on the blade guard or the hose underneath the under the table.

My step dad installed this system while I was in the US, and although it does work pretty good, it could be better. Part of the problem is the use of the EB and Scheppach which I already had before I went to the US. Apart from taking up a lot of room they do not seem to work together as good as they do on their own.

So my questions are:

Will the 100mm pipe work be ok with the cyclone or will I need to renew it?

Will either of the motors from the extractors I already have work with the cyclone? If not what size will I need?

If these motors are not any good what will i have to spend on another one?

Will either of the propellers (or is that impellers?) work with the cyclone?

Will what ever motor I use easily cope with the machines downstairs and maybe upstairs on this size of workshop?

Silly questions I am sure but I do not want to buy something that is not going to be a lot better then what I have got, especially if I am going to have to buy another motor and/or propeller/impeller.

Cheers

Mike

EDIT, When I say that the system could be better, I don't mean for one moment that my dad did not do a good job in installing the system, what I mean is I don't think that these extractors working together do the sort of job you would think they would.

 

[Barry Burgess]

Barry this is not true. Just because you are a cyclone convert does not make the rest of us liars, or wrong.

I posted all info I have in reponse to the request:
Axminster bag rated at 1um. It cost just over £30 and just fits my Charnwood extractor. I do not have the receipt (why keep one for a bag once fitted and working????) and the order was placed over the phone with a salesman who went down to the demo machine area to measure all that he had in an effort to find one that fits my DE, thus I have no idea of part number etc. becuase he took care of everything for me.

I would expect all 1um Axminster bags to be exactly the same construction and materials.

ALL of this was posted before when the request was made

On my system, the only dust that escapes into the atmosphere does so from the blade edge and above the wood where the extractor cannot suck.
This is one thing that will also be the case with cyclones.

The plain fact is that standard DEs with 1um bags collect all the rubbish my machines can produce - even MDF dust.

Bean bought the same bag for his DE, maybe he has more info

Tony I did not call you a liar but no bag can filter down to .5micro that I have been able to find and that is what is required to stop MDF dust. Its not just the Pentz site that says so.
I am not a cyclone convert but was finding it hard in the gym following a day in the workshop and wondered why. That started me of on trying to improve my workshop's air.
I would not have gone down the filter and cyclone route if my extractor had worked with MDF and ply dust.
The standard bags are a dust blower and the ones I could find were no better than 2micro which will not do.
The filters are 10 times at least the area of the bag so as to allow for the clogging that occurs and hence the reduction in the air flow.
Tony how do you test to see if dust is leaking???
Barry

 

[Barry Burgess]

Tony my interrest in the bag you quoted as I am converting a dust extractor for a friend who cannot spend much. I fitted my old plastic bag and metal strap from my old dust extractor and offered to make the filter holder if he would buy the filter but he cannot afford it. I call Axminster and the technical department quoted me the spec on the bag as going down to 2 micros. A number of bag suppliers qouted figures close to £60.
He uses mainly MDF so I need the correct spec.
Barry

 

[Barry Burgess]

Tony you stated this filter
http://www.axminster.co.uk/default.asp?part=AFS1000B
But I cannot find it and looking back at some of your earlier posts you were also talking about a .5micro bag filter????
Hopefully you could bring it to Philly's as I would like to get it tested!!!!
Got a mate who tests this sort of things. An engineering type like you - I only did science and later computers.
Barry

 

[Anonymous]

I was one of the maybe's, but the only trouble is, dust collection is a black art to me and before I spend another £395 I am going to need convincing that buying one of these cyclones will greatly improve my system.

True - you will need to cost justiify it

I have always been impressed by what Bill Pentz claims his cyclones can do, but there is a huge difference between this and seeing it work in my workshop.

As yet I have failed to find anybody who is not

At the moment I have 100mm spirolux metal ducting running around the complete 27ft X 13ft workshop, which has branchs to 7 different machines.

I have another 27ft X 13ft upstairs which i have stopped using at the moment because I am going to fit a new staircase in the not to distance future, which is when I am going to need to either send another 1 or 2 branches up there, have a separate system, or just a mobile extractor.

Connected to this system I have a Elektra Beckum SPA1100, Scheppach HA2600 (with their fine filter) and a twin motor Camvac CGV386 dust extractor. I also have a Axminster AFS2000 workshop air filter hanging from the ceiling and I use a Trend Airshield 90% of the time.

The Elektra Beckum and the Scheppach are connected at the same time to one end of the system , and the Camvac is wheeled around and used on the router table and scroll saw etc, and as extra support (with a possibly hose) on any other of the machine's if i need it (for instance if I am cutting up some MDF on the Scheppach table saw I will set the hose to catch what ever may escape from the hose on the blade guard or the hose underneath the under the table.

My step dad installed this system while I was in the US, and although it does work pretty good, it could be better. Part of the problem is the use of the EB and Scheppach which I already had before I went to the US. Apart from taking up a lot of room they do not seem to work together as good as they do on their own.

True - in air movement 1+1 does not equal 2 -

So my questions are:

Will the 100mm pipe work be ok with the cyclone or will I need to renew it?

It will work - but 100mm is only 78.53sql CM of duct - 150mm is 176 sq cm - that more than double the area - and if you are going to go for 4000 CFM then you will need 150 mm

Will either of the motors from the extractors I already have work with the cyclone? If not what size will I need?

Again - yes they will work - but from memory these are only 1HP (750w) if that and now way will the provide the CFM and FPM you are going to need to drive the system you have

If these motors are not any good what will i have to spend on another one?

Depends if you have 1 or 3 phase - on ebay you might well get something for under £100 - then you need an impellor which I suspect you will have to get from the US

Will either of the propellers (or is that impellers?) work with the cyclone?

Nope they simply will not shift enough air

Will what ever motor I use easily cope with the machines downstairs and maybe upstairs on this size of workshop?

Yup - if you have a 3 to 5 Hp motor - no problem

Silly questions I am sure but I do not want to buy something that is not going to be a lot better then what I have got, especially if I am going to have to buy another motor and/or propeller/impeller.

With the quantify of machines you have etc you should be looking at dust extraction really carfully
Cheers

Mike

EDIT, When I say that the system could be better, I don't mean for one moment that my dad did not do a good job in installing the system, what I mean is I don't think that these extractors working together do the sort of job you would think they would.[/quote]

 

[Mike.C]

Francis, thanks for answering my questions. As I have said if the cyclone is going to make a big difference to my dust collecting system then I would be interested.

Francis,

If these motors are not any good what will i have to spend on another one?

Depends if you have 1 or 3 phase - on ebay you might well get something for under £100 - then you need an impellor which I suspect you will have to get from the US

What exactly is an impellor? Obviously it's not what I would call the propeller (inside the dust extractor) because why would I need to get one from the US.

Cheers

Mike

 

[ivan]

The problem with filter bags is dust....Axmister's 2 micron bag witll begin to filter smaller stuff once teh fabric gets a coating of cake.

 

[Scrit]

Tony from an earlier thread a number of people asked for the details of your bag - which we did not get. I have been unable to find a bag that could get anywhere close to your specs.

A number of bag suppliers qouted figures close to £60.

Hi Barry

We should be speaking!

Being located slap bang in the middle between the Yorkshire heavy woollen district and the Lancashire cotton belt - and there's still some of these industries going (it's not all dead) - I'm lucky enough to have a manufacturer of fine felted cotton or cotton/poly mix filter socks nearby. The company actually weave the filter materials as well as making-up the bags and they are the OEM for a number of UK industrial extraction systems manufacturers as well as being an exporter. This company is unfortunately trade account only, however if anyone would like me to get them a quote for bags I'd be happy to do so as I have an account there. They can supply bags down to about 1 micron filtration suitable for use on MDF dust, and whilst (from experience) these are not as effective as a pleated filter set-up, partly because they have less surface area, they are nonetheless a huge improvement on OEM stuff and MUCH cheaper, especially as they will happily produce any diameter and length you require (mine were made 450 mm longer than the OEM filter socks). I found the cost of buying "2 micron" filter socks from them a few years back to be less than 1/2 the cost of buying Coral OEM filter socks - and they were only 20 micron string vests. Similarly they saved me well over £100 on the cost of the 24 pocket filter set in the fine DX we have in the CNC.

If anyone is interested in going down this path as an intermediate step, please PM me and I'll get some prices. Because these are not off the shelf items delivery is normally 10 to 15 working days.

The problem with filter bags is dust....Axmister's 2 micron bag witll begin to filter smaller stuff once teh fabric gets a coating of cake.

Thi is true of any woven filter material. I tend to throw a couple of buckets of MDF through the DX to coat it to start with...... :shock:

From an engineering perspective (?) I've just taken an 8,000 cfm unit out of our premises which used to be able to extract our CNC, a panel saw and two pin routers running at the same time - just. The problems that Barry is highlighting with fine dust are very real. Our fine dust DX had a pocket filter capable of filtering 1 micron, but it was only effective after a run-in period of a number of hours when it was new. Once the filter had been loaded, however, it was sufficiently good that in general we were able to work at most of the machinery without masks most of the time. 0.5 micron filter socks are an impossibility, but it takes a lot less to coat the inside of a 1 or 2 micron filter sock to get it down to that sort of performance than it does to coat the inside of a 20 or 30 micron filter sock.

Scrit

 

[ivan]

Sorry, hit the submit button by mistake!

The problem with filter bags is dust....
Axmister's 2 micron bag will begin to filter smaller stuff once the fabric gets a coating of cake. At this point the airflow must be reduced because the pores of the fabric are now partially blocked with particles of 2 microns and over. It might be OK for you if you don't cut much mdf and clean the bag regularly. Incidentally my 2micron bag is more than twice as big as the Axminster one and with mdf needs cleaning long before the bin is even 1/4 full. Remember also that dust capture requires the highest velocity air flow.

According to the UK engineers airflow through a fabric bag collecting fine dust should not exceed about 1.2M per minute, which for the sort of extractor we've been talking about (1440 - 2000M3/Hr) needs around 20-30 sqM of fabric if the fine dust is to stay inside the bag, and not migrate through the fabric.

If I want to actually get in the workshop alongside the extractor I'd need to use a pleated filter similar to Barry's, and either clean it often, and probably replace it regularly as it gradually clogs up, or protect it with a cyclone to remove most of the dust load first.

The most sensible solution for you will depend on whether you cut up a sheet of MDF less than once a month or several times a day.

 

[Scrit]

.......and with mdf needs cleaning long before the bin is even 1/4 full. Remember also that dust capture requires the highest velocity air flow.

That tends to make me think that your collector is not spinning out the finer stuff before it hits the filter material.

According to the UK engineers airflow through a fabric bag collecting fine dust should not exceed about 1.2M per minute, which for the sort of extractor we've been talking about (1440 - 2000M3/Hr) needs around 20-30 sqM of fabric if the fine dust is to stay inside the bag, and not migrate through the fabric.

That is normally expressed as an air to cloth ratio (cfm to square feet) - commercial minimum is around 6:1 with 10:1 being the figure to aim for, i.e. a 1000 cfm collector needs 100 square feet of filter area. Very few dust extractors even get near the 6:1 ratio, let alone the 10:1 ideal

Scrit