Who said bespoke woodwork doesn't pay?

[pren]

Hmm.

It would seem I've been a tad naieve/romantic in my opening statement/rant I think EdSutton put it best:

I think most of us hobby woodworkers go round this loop from time to time; its all too easy to look at a product someone else is offering and think 'I could do that cheaper / better'. But, as others have already said, once you allow yourself a reasonable hourly rate, amortise some of the cost of your workshop, tools etc and think about marketing the product and administrating the sales, the picture begins to look different. The cost of materials that one first considers as significant is, as Dan says, not massively relevant in the end.

I have to be the worst person I know for going round places like MFI and tutting at the high prices of bog-standard chipboard furniture. I know that SWMBO gets a bit put out that I sometimes prevent her from buying a piece of furniture on the grounds that I can make if for much less, at better quality.

Then again, I don't charge myself an hourly rate. All the wee jobs I've done so far have been for friends and family, whom I would not dream of charging beyond material costs. I see it purely as a hobby and am grateful for any opportunities that arise from my friends to practice my 'art'. So far, all of my 'commissions' have been for those who cannot afford 'nice' things. I've stepped in to help them out where I can. Costs such as electric, screws, glue, wear and tear are not taken into account.

this budget fitted wardrobe project has so far taken approximately 16hrs (spread over a weekend and evenings). I guess if I were to add on, say, £15 per hr, my 'budget' unit might not look so attractive .

Hmm (again).

Plenty of food for thought. Still not entirely convinced that the aforementioned toybox or letters are worth their price for CNC machined MDF. Hand made: yes, as Dan Tovey illustrates. I guess it's all down to the overheads.

Hmm, hmm and hmm, some more.


Many thanks for the contributions. This is the sort of debate that shows off these forums in their best light. Professionals/experienced amateurs educating the village silly person without resorting to insults! :lol:

Cheers.
Bryn.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Pren
If you charged only £15 per hour you'd be bust within 2 years.
There are a thousand billable hours a year, so your turnover would be 15K, although you'd probably work twice that.

You have to pay rates, rent, insurance, publicity, petrol, PHL. Sometimes you have no work but still have the overheads. And what about today, when, like me, you have something which has to be done before Friday, but can't see to do it? (Don't panic, I'll be able to see properly again by Monday, by which time I'll be in Firenze )

On the other hand, if you don't charge an hourly rate, please come and work for me, that way I might make a profit!

It seems to me that the only way to make woodwork pay is to do a good job QUICKLY. Dan has it right, I don't.
S

 

[MikeG.]

Steve,

I don't mean to be picky (and it doesn't alter the principle of your comment), but there are about 2000 bill-able hours in most people's year.....

Mike

 

[CNC Paul]

Steve likes long holidays 8)



Paul

 

[Good Surname or what ?]

Steve,

Your £3.5K cheval mirror would not have been out of place at Betty Norbury's bash this last week.

There was a £41K table!

cheers
Phil

 

[Steve Maskery]

there are about 2000 bill-able hours in most people's year.....

Mike
Please explain your calculation. I have mine to hand and am happy to do a swap.

There was a £41K table

Well I sincerely hope that the maker gets his asking price. Personally I cannot conceive of making something worth that much. I didn't go this year, so I didn't see it, but I say Hurrah to the maker. He obviously has a talent I can only aspire to, and I'm not being facetious.
S

PS
Phil, I'm flattered that you think my mirror would fit in at Betty's, even though you haven't seen it yet , but yes, I do think it would stand. I can think of only two other pieces I have made which I would dare to put up for scrutiny in such an environment.

 

[BradNaylor]

there are about 2000 bill-able hours in most people's year.....

er,

8 hours x 5 days x say 48 weeks = 1920

However, I'm with Steve.

At £30 per hour I only need to work 1000 hours a year!

Plus the cash jobs, of course...

Cheers
Dan
:lol:

 

[Jake]

Plus the cash jobs, of course...

Cheers
Dan
:lol:

Effectively, theft from the rest of us, so I'd stop gloating about that!

 

[MikeG.]

Steve,

Dan did it for me.........

.......if only I could keep to an 8 hour day!!

Mike

 

[BradNaylor]

Plus the cash jobs, of course...

Cheers
Dan
:lol:

Effectively, theft from the rest of us, so I'd stop gloating about that!

I believe you're a lawyer, Jake.

The last two solicitors I've used have both done deals for cash...

:lol:

Dan

 

[Steve Maskery]

I thought so, but that is not a realistic calculation

You have to consider yourself to be an employee of your own company.

So there are 365 days a year, but you can resonably expect not to HAVE to work Sat & Sun.

261 days.

But the minimum legal leave is 20 days
241

Plus statutory days (Christmas, Easter etc)
230

Some days you are going to be sick
225

So, assuming 8 working hours a day:
1800 hours


Now as well as making stuff, you have to go shopping for timber, visit the accountant, argue on the phone with the Inland Revenue, go to visit potential customers who eventually shop elsewhere and work for clients who never actually pay up. You have to design stuff that never gets made. You have to go on training course to keep up-to-date with H&S. All this is typically 40 - 50%% of a business time.

And some days you simply don't have any clients.

So I stand by my 1000 hours as a rule of thumb.

On top of that you have to consider the opportunity coast of your capital investment. If you have a 50K workshop, you could easily get 2.5k on that just by sticking it in the post office and never getting out of bed.

Of course, if you are happy to accept an 80 hour week as the basic norm, and accept that you have to invest the cost of a third of an average house in order to hope to earn something less than minimum wage, then your calculation stands and I'm just a layabout
S

 

[BradNaylor]

You have to consider yourself to be an employee of your own company.

So there are 365 days a year, but you can resonable expect not to HAVE to work Sta & Sun.

261 days.

But the minimum legal leave is 20 days
241

Plus statutory days (Christmas, Easter etc)
230

Some days you are going to be sick
225

So, assuming 8 working hours a day:
1800 hours


Now as well as making stuff, you have to go shopping for timber, visit the accountant, argue on the phone with the Inland Revenue, go to visit potential customers who eventually shop elsewhere and work for clients who never actually pay up. You have to design stuff that never gets made. You have to go on training course to keep up-to-date with H&S. All this is typically 40 - 50%% of a business time.

And some days you simply don't have any clients.

So I stand by my 1000 hours as a rule of thumb.

Of course, if you are happy to accept an 80 hour week as the basic norm, then your calculation stands and I'm just a layabout
S

I understand the point you are making; however these things do not take up anything like 40 -50% of ones time.

Even if you set aside one day a week for such matters it would still only add up to 20% of one's time.

As for not having any clients, my order book is full until March next year.

And most self-employed people work far more than 40 hours a week.

I don't, of course. 1000 hours a year for me!



:lol:

Dan

 

[Roger]

I started out that way; thinking that no one would pay what I considered a worthwhile price, but as Marcus said - they are out there and they will pay. You'd be surprised who buys pieces, where they are and who they are!

On the other hand, I've never based my prices on an hourly rate. My overheads are low, I can work at 7am or 10pm any day I like and I believe a good deal is when both parties are happy with the end result.

If the eBay chaps can get the market and they make a decent profit from it, then who are we to say it's not worth it, or overpriced. The customers have the final say on that . . . .

They won't buy them and the price will change, or of course he'll have nothing but lousy feedback.

Good luck to him (or her of course).

 

[MikeG.]

Steve,

I charge by the hour as an Architect, and work from home. Every minute of every day that I am working, someone is paying for it. Even if I am doing product research or writing an invoice, chasing local authorities or making 'phone calls, every minute of it is always noted on the relevent file.

If Africa didn't keep calling and I ever managed to work a full year, I would be billing for a total of over 2000 hours........that is what I based my reply on. The industry standard is 37.5x48=1800 hours.......that's what an employee in a practice would work. As my own boss I don't have the luxury of being able to let clients down, so will work the 10% extra quite happily.

Mike

 

[Jake]

I believe you're a lawyer, Jake.

The last two solicitors I've used have both done deals for cash...

:lol:

Dan

So what? I doubt the revelation that there are dishonest solicitors around will shock anyone (much as it should).

 

[Steve Maskery]

Mike
I'm very happy for you that you can work that way, really I am, but I simply don't think it is typical of the average jobbing woody trying to make a living.

I wish it were.

S

 

[Jake]

We charge by hour obviously - my highest ever year was about 2200 chargeable hours - it was hell (working nearly every weekend and 10 'til early hours most days for 4/5 months). Never again.

I suppose it depends what you deem to be chargeable, though.

 

[BradNaylor]

I doubt the revelation that there are dishonest solicitors around will shock anyone (much as it should).

Would that the dishonesty exhibited by most solicitors was confined merely to tax evasion...

Dan

 

[Rich]

Would you care to expound on your last post Dan? are you inferring that lawyers are not only evading tax, but worse, I'd be interested to know, and if you have any proof, have you reported it? for my own part, when I have used one, he/she has set the clock ticking and charges accordingly, admittedly they were solicitors, I would Imagine lawyers do the same.

Rich.

 

[Jake]

Would that the dishonesty exhibited by most solicitors was confined merely to tax evasion...

Dan

Most? Care to expand?

Not that I think lawyers en masse are any better or worse than any other occupation, but I'd say that was unlikely.