I have been happily doing my own thing as a cabinetmaker for many years and recently joined this and other woodworkers groups. When I trained Festool was about but few actually bought their kit due to price. Now 20 something years later all I read about is Festool this and Festool that. Have the other manufacturers offerings gone to the dogs, Festool got cheaper or what?
When did the world go mad for Festool?
- Thread starter Beau
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Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
Fashion :roll:
Having said that - I've been impressed by Doug's skirting and architrave expertise which he attributes to the Festool Kapok (whatever it's called) and yes it's brilliant just the tool for this job (lots of funny angles).
But is it the ideal tool for other jobs too? Perhaps only where the volume of work is so high that higher productivity will pay for the tool.
Having said that - I've been impressed by Doug's skirting and architrave expertise which he attributes to the Festool Kapok (whatever it's called) and yes it's brilliant just the tool for this job (lots of funny angles).
But is it the ideal tool for other jobs too? Perhaps only where the volume of work is so high that higher productivity will pay for the tool.
MMUK
Established Member
Foolstool? I'm ambivalent about the stuff. I can see why some of their tools are popular, they do a unique job. But the majority is, to my mind, overpriced and doesn't do the job any better or quicker.
I think YouTube has a lot to do with it. In the old days one would rarely get the opportunity to see the benefits of expensive tools unless you knew people who owned and used such stuff. Now you can just watch a few videos of Half-inch Shy, Wood Whisperer, Peter Parfitt and any number of others and you can see what a game changer these tools are and why they are worth the money.
MMUK":1l2bel5q said:
Pretty much my thoughts but to be fair I have never used their kit.
pcb1962 you mention these tools being "game changers" how so? I can see the merits of the Domino for some applications but beyond that......
I am open to new ideas and don't want to miss out if there is a good % of time to me saved in making on the other hand I have a good range of accurate tools and am not going to replace them on a whim.
heimlaga
Established Member
I think it is because people have started to believe that certain standard joints are very difficult to make. Then they never dare to try and learn....and Festrool comes in as a saviour........and they spread the word in the internet....... and the Festool hype only gets stronger.
All Festool products I have seen are high quality. I would not hesitate to buy a Festool drill or sander or cirkular saw or whatever if I needed one for professional use. However I think many of their speciality machines are totally totally unnecsessary unless you are specializing in that very type of job and lack the space needed for full size machines. I don't like expensive unnecsessary tools.
As a part timer I rather spend my money on a full size hollow chisel mortiser and a full size spindle moulder with a tennoning sled than on a Festool substitute.
All Festool products I have seen are high quality. I would not hesitate to buy a Festool drill or sander or cirkular saw or whatever if I needed one for professional use. However I think many of their speciality machines are totally totally unnecsessary unless you are specializing in that very type of job and lack the space needed for full size machines. I don't like expensive unnecsessary tools.
As a part timer I rather spend my money on a full size hollow chisel mortiser and a full size spindle moulder with a tennoning sled than on a Festool substitute.
Rhossydd
Established Member
I found it all a bit weird when I joined too, there's something a little unsettling when a tool manufacturer starts selling 'fan merchandise'.Beau":3mfpfgy1 said:
On reflection, it's just an aspiration to own the 'best' power tools. When I started out, all anyone wanted was Elu kit, now it's Festool.
They do seem to offer at least a genuinely innovative product with the Domino jointer, it's just a shame it's so eye wateringly expensive for people that won't see great financial benefit from ownership.
It all does seem pretty well made, if a bit too playmobile in style. I doubt it would get the following it has if the products were unreliable or performed poorly, but other kit can still do the job.
Well quality has fallen in a lot of products, you can't turn around for stumbling over someone complaining about how X brands products just aren't the same quality anymore. The only brands I know that have avoided that are Festool and Hilti.
Random Orbital Bob
Established Member
I believe that to understand Festool's ludicrous ability to persuade people to part with their hard earned is all to do with market behaviour.
Think back 20 years.....when a battery operated drill took 12 hours to charge and held that charge for about 3 turns of a 1/2" screw!! (with a pilot hole).
The innovation rate has been exponential and consequently the market has gone from the Yankee, Estwing and brace and bit to all singing and dancing colour co-ordinated "families" of tools in wheelie bags that share the same battery connections and Paslodes etc.
Just like all markets.....they evolve. The pro builders were the early adopters of "serious" drill drivers and it seems to me that Dewalt pretty much dominated in that world with Makita, Hitachi even Mafell etc all there too. I've renovated one an built from scratch two houses since starting 1990 and I've watched Dewalt grow and grow on site through that time. More recently Makita have had a surge but they seem to suffer quality problems so its up and down. Meanwhile...sailing along the top of all this commodity activity on site is both the workshop folks and also the hobbyists. Lest we forget, the cost to entry barrier on not just hand held power tools but machine tools is now so low, relatively, that the weekend warriors can have at it...and do. Mass internet media helps spread the news fast as do forums like this one and very quickly the market starts to get a real feel for whats at the top and whats at the bottom. The Germans (cars, white goods etc) are absolutely superb at getting the marketing right to occupy the premium niches in their chosen markets and Festool have done exactly what BMW, Mercedes and Audi did.
They have somehow captured a certain feeling of "cache" with their tools which (in my opinion) allows them to get away with a premium that has a component of goodwill in it and is unrelated to better quality. They do have a justifiable quality premium to be charged in my view because their tools are dam good there's no escaping that. Well engineered, great quality. I just don't think their chopsaw is worth £1200!! Maybe £600 as a premium but not that greater difference to its competition.
So, in short, the Jerry's have done it again.....someone had to occupy that upper niche because that's the way markets work....could have been Mafell, but they didn't understand the market and play to it in the way Festool did. This is easily as much to do with status as it is to do with quality....Festool have identified themselves with the "status tool purchaser". They've positioned themselves brilliantly and they net a new sucker every time Mr Parfitt bangs on about how he would happily mortgage his house to buy whatever they produce next. So in my view, good...but not that good.
Personally, I own one piece of their kit...the domino and I sold my hollow mortiser for it. I don't regret that for a second as it's a genuine innovation that makes life very convenient and fast. I've a mate that swears by their sanders because they're light weight for ceiling work but I'm not convinced about anything else. Would I like to own more? Sure, if someone else is paying!!
Think back 20 years.....when a battery operated drill took 12 hours to charge and held that charge for about 3 turns of a 1/2" screw!! (with a pilot hole).
The innovation rate has been exponential and consequently the market has gone from the Yankee, Estwing and brace and bit to all singing and dancing colour co-ordinated "families" of tools in wheelie bags that share the same battery connections and Paslodes etc.
Just like all markets.....they evolve. The pro builders were the early adopters of "serious" drill drivers and it seems to me that Dewalt pretty much dominated in that world with Makita, Hitachi even Mafell etc all there too. I've renovated one an built from scratch two houses since starting 1990 and I've watched Dewalt grow and grow on site through that time. More recently Makita have had a surge but they seem to suffer quality problems so its up and down. Meanwhile...sailing along the top of all this commodity activity on site is both the workshop folks and also the hobbyists. Lest we forget, the cost to entry barrier on not just hand held power tools but machine tools is now so low, relatively, that the weekend warriors can have at it...and do. Mass internet media helps spread the news fast as do forums like this one and very quickly the market starts to get a real feel for whats at the top and whats at the bottom. The Germans (cars, white goods etc) are absolutely superb at getting the marketing right to occupy the premium niches in their chosen markets and Festool have done exactly what BMW, Mercedes and Audi did.
They have somehow captured a certain feeling of "cache" with their tools which (in my opinion) allows them to get away with a premium that has a component of goodwill in it and is unrelated to better quality. They do have a justifiable quality premium to be charged in my view because their tools are dam good there's no escaping that. Well engineered, great quality. I just don't think their chopsaw is worth £1200!! Maybe £600 as a premium but not that greater difference to its competition.
So, in short, the Jerry's have done it again.....someone had to occupy that upper niche because that's the way markets work....could have been Mafell, but they didn't understand the market and play to it in the way Festool did. This is easily as much to do with status as it is to do with quality....Festool have identified themselves with the "status tool purchaser". They've positioned themselves brilliantly and they net a new sucker every time Mr Parfitt bangs on about how he would happily mortgage his house to buy whatever they produce next. So in my view, good...but not that good.
Personally, I own one piece of their kit...the domino and I sold my hollow mortiser for it. I don't regret that for a second as it's a genuine innovation that makes life very convenient and fast. I've a mate that swears by their sanders because they're light weight for ceiling work but I'm not convinced about anything else. Would I like to own more? Sure, if someone else is paying!!
I suspect there's an element of one upmanship as well. There's also a bit of a vicious circle - you need to be seen to have first class gear to justify your charging good money ... and then you have to charge good money just to justify the gear.
Random Orbital Bob
Established Member
phil.p":2qcbr2ug said:
That's what I mean by "status"
MMUK
Established Member
Random Orbital Bob":2l1iizjl said:
In other words you both mean brand snobs keeping up with the Jones' :lol:
Im only a hobbyist but in the past month or so I have purchased a few Festool tools, clamps etc. spending well over a grand.
And as these are for non professional use it has taken some time for me to justify to myself paying the premium rate that Festool gear costs.
I have been considering getting a Festool ts55 for well over a year before I decided to take the plunge and purchase.
I must admit the 3 year all inclusive warranty is a deal sweetener.
I can also understand why some people are a bit miffed by the "fan merchandise" etc., I think a lot of that type of thing is reserved for the Yanks. :lol:
Some of those boys seem obsessed with Festool and on some forums there are threads posing questions such as "What Festool did you buy today?" and so on it goes.
However I was instantly impressed when using the ts55 on a track as it makes everything easy and safe, but what really impressed me was the dust extraction capability, when hooked up to my Numatic dust extractor there really was virtually zero dust when sawing through mdf.
When working in a small enclosed garage (as I do) it really makes a difference when you can keep the air and work area as dust free as possible.
Some of the Festool power tools can replace bigger machinery for certain tasks so in that respect they can actually be more economical and save valuable space in the work area.
I would also say that from my perspective the "Festool system" can actually make up for a lack of skill and make tasks easier to perform.
It's certainly not a cheap way of buying tools, but im hoping I've made a worthwhile investment in a hobby that I enjoy while keeping the air I breathe cleaner and working with wood in a safer way.
I would say that before judging their products just on price alone, look at the bigger picture and have a go with one or two of the Festool offerings and see what you think afterwards.
And as these are for non professional use it has taken some time for me to justify to myself paying the premium rate that Festool gear costs.
I have been considering getting a Festool ts55 for well over a year before I decided to take the plunge and purchase.
I must admit the 3 year all inclusive warranty is a deal sweetener.
I can also understand why some people are a bit miffed by the "fan merchandise" etc., I think a lot of that type of thing is reserved for the Yanks. :lol:
Some of those boys seem obsessed with Festool and on some forums there are threads posing questions such as "What Festool did you buy today?" and so on it goes.
However I was instantly impressed when using the ts55 on a track as it makes everything easy and safe, but what really impressed me was the dust extraction capability, when hooked up to my Numatic dust extractor there really was virtually zero dust when sawing through mdf.
When working in a small enclosed garage (as I do) it really makes a difference when you can keep the air and work area as dust free as possible.
Some of the Festool power tools can replace bigger machinery for certain tasks so in that respect they can actually be more economical and save valuable space in the work area.
I would also say that from my perspective the "Festool system" can actually make up for a lack of skill and make tasks easier to perform.
It's certainly not a cheap way of buying tools, but im hoping I've made a worthwhile investment in a hobby that I enjoy while keeping the air I breathe cleaner and working with wood in a safer way.
I would say that before judging their products just on price alone, look at the bigger picture and have a go with one or two of the Festool offerings and see what you think afterwards.
Well here we go again. A load of nonsense sprouted about Festool mostly by people who have never used the tools. A fixation on price over value.
I have plenty of festools. They are about the only power tools I have. I use them perhaps less than other people might as I'm mostly a hand tool woodworker but when I do I know I'm using a reliable, accurate, largely dust-free tool.
Price? I sold a four year-old track saw for 75% of its new price to buy the newer version. Value? My 10 year-old dust extractor works as it did on day one. My sanders are approaching ten years now too. Jig saw 6 years. Router 7 years. Domino 6 years. Cost? I don't have a table saw or chop saw but my tracksaw is all I need. One router. Not one in a table and one plunge. Just one. So when you put all that together Festool cost me less over the long run than a bunch of cheaper tools that break down quicker, need replacing and don't hold their value.
When I go from my workshop to the job site the systainers stack neatly, safely and are easy to transport. Within seconds I'm ready to work.
Seems to me like people on this forum are happy to pay more for Lie Nielsen or Veritas but baulk at Festool because it's a power tool. Well their superior features justify a higher price and over time, they offer far more value than cheaper tools.
And bear in mind that the tools cost far less in North America than they do in the UK so the relative cost to other tools is not so excessive, which is where many of the YouTube fan base are located.
"One-upmanship?" I don't give a monkeys what others think. I've got nothing to prove. I just buy and use what I consider to be best for the job. I wouldn't buy a tool simply because it's made by Festool but in the same way I have confidence in the quality of Lie Nielsen, the same goes for Festool.
I have plenty of festools. They are about the only power tools I have. I use them perhaps less than other people might as I'm mostly a hand tool woodworker but when I do I know I'm using a reliable, accurate, largely dust-free tool.
Price? I sold a four year-old track saw for 75% of its new price to buy the newer version. Value? My 10 year-old dust extractor works as it did on day one. My sanders are approaching ten years now too. Jig saw 6 years. Router 7 years. Domino 6 years. Cost? I don't have a table saw or chop saw but my tracksaw is all I need. One router. Not one in a table and one plunge. Just one. So when you put all that together Festool cost me less over the long run than a bunch of cheaper tools that break down quicker, need replacing and don't hold their value.
When I go from my workshop to the job site the systainers stack neatly, safely and are easy to transport. Within seconds I'm ready to work.
Seems to me like people on this forum are happy to pay more for Lie Nielsen or Veritas but baulk at Festool because it's a power tool. Well their superior features justify a higher price and over time, they offer far more value than cheaper tools.
And bear in mind that the tools cost far less in North America than they do in the UK so the relative cost to other tools is not so excessive, which is where many of the YouTube fan base are located.
"One-upmanship?" I don't give a monkeys what others think. I've got nothing to prove. I just buy and use what I consider to be best for the job. I wouldn't buy a tool simply because it's made by Festool but in the same way I have confidence in the quality of Lie Nielsen, the same goes for Festool.
Sorry moupe but all you say about reliability applies to my less expensive tools. In 20 years I have not anything actually fail. Yes the odd bearing on the Elu routers and batteries for drills but reliability from the like of Bosch, Makita, Dewalt, Ryobi and Metabo have all been faultless. I don't doubt the Festool is good kit and more accurate than many but with careful selection there are plenty of good tools on the market that can save you a packet. I don't know how it is for others but I have not found furniture making very profitable so can't easily part with Festool kind of money. For the record I don't blow money on expensive hand tools either. Trusty Record planes and a few Japanese chisels is about as classy as it gets here.
Random orbit Bob
I think you have probably nailed it with you description of the market. Good to know I am not the only one on here who survives without the entire Festool range at my disposal.
Random orbit Bob
I think you have probably nailed it with you description of the market. Good to know I am not the only one on here who survives without the entire Festool range at my disposal.
petermillard
Established Member
Yes, Festool are good at marketing (not actually a crime, btw) but unless the tools were decent they’d never have gone anywhere. And as Random Orbital Bob eloquently said, they’re also much more accessible than they were (as are, say, Mafell, Hilti, et al) and are cheaper than they used to be since the EU rapped their knuckles for price-fixing a while back.
Anyway, we all know it's not the tool, it's the bloke using it, right? :wink:
Pete
Anyway, we all know it's not the tool, it's the bloke using it, right? :wink:
Pete
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