Well, Ebay has stolen a Norris 2 from me

[D_W]

I bought a norris 2 from a seller on ebay a couple of weeks ago. They were shipping it only domestically and I convinced them to open the sale to the global shipping program on ebay.

Yesterday, ebay refunded me my money without explanation other than that the shipping was restricted.

This norris 2 was $280 or so (converted) which is unheard of over here.

322646400394 (the old sale number on ebay).

After three layers of emails with no explanation, they have told me that because it is a woodworking tool, it can't be shipped. However, they will not send it back to the seller, either.

The only obscure reference that I can find is that the UK government is confiscating anything with rosewood in it, regardless of age.

(CITES covers rosewood in the EU, but from what i can find, it is regarding commercial use and items before 1947 are exempt. This plane is before 1947).

This is a theft.

 

[D_W]

Ebay's advice to me thus far is to not use their Global Shipping Program.

That's really special.

 

[AndyT]

This is one of the downsides to eBay. When it all works, it's lovely - people who want obscure objects can be linked up to people who have them but don't want them. The reach is worldwide and instant.

But when something goes wrong, you're stuck, dealing with a faceless corporation whose staff and AI software cannot be questioned or externally overruled.

 

[MikeK]

At least you have your money back. The seller might be out the plane and the money. :-(

 

[custard]

The only obscure reference that I can find is that the UK government is confiscating anything with rosewood in it, regardless of age.

Glad you got the refund, but in other ways this is a timely post.

A combination of Brexit, CITES, and a falling pound has triggered me to sell a substantial stock of Rosewoods, Ebonies, and Mahoganies to a German luthier supplier. I'm concerned that, lovely as these boards are, they're no longer fashionable furniture timbers and the demand just isn't there. If I hang on to them for much longer then I might not be able to sell them outside the UK or even sell them at all. They were collected last week, I've been buying boards like this for over thirty years and they're irreplaceable, I almost ran down the road after the courier yelling "stop, I've changed my mind"!

I've kept enough for two or three substantial projects in case my kids ever want something extra special. But as far as I can see the future is renewable timbers such as Oak, Cherry, Walnut, Ash, or even Douglas Fir.

 

[lurcher]

hi david there are now restrictions as to which countries will allow wood into the country i sold a full set of record stay set planes and some infils to a guy in usa
and youre country will not let in rosewood so the seller may be worth contacting i sell with ebay global shipping program and all tools stopped at the postal center are cheecked and repacked for on posting hope this is of some help to you . also did nigel send you pictures of the £2.00 arkansas stone

 

[D_W]

He did send me pictures of the stones. If they were 2 quid, that's quite a fine purchase.

In terms of rosewood, the GSP literally shipped another rosewood plane after this one. It's not as nice - of course given the two, I'd rather have the norris but nothing ever seems to work out that way.

(I got a slater with a rosewood infill two weeks ago, too, but that came via DHL).

Ebay has turned up limp and refused to do anything further or provide contact, so I've opened an inquiry with UK customs. The seller is pissed, also, because a plane that they have sold has instead been confiscated and will be resold by the party who did the confiscating to someone that the seller has no control over.

In terms of money, they did provide me with a refund, and out of ebay assets and not the sellers', so I'm not technically out any money, but I am out of a plane that would cost three times what the purchase price was here in the US.

The rosewood issue in the US is real, but it's on raw stock for commercial use (and I'm sure customs might seize that if it was private transfer because they have no way of confirming it's not commercial). The law in this case, though, says 1947 for paperwork for commercial lumber provided from a location in the EU or to the EU, and paperwork for all for *commercial use*. There are grandfathering dates of 1992 and April 2017 for dalbergia nigra (and not all dalbergia has been added to cites, so I would assume the price of all of those types will skyrocket here and over there), but they are for items made after those dates. Clearly, anyone with a brain could figure out that the Norris 2 predates that just by the fact that the company doesn't exist.

 

[Rorschach]

You don't matter in the grand scheme of things, your purchase is one of millions made everyday and it got caught. You are not out of pocket so I would just chalk it up to experience and try again.

 

[JohnPW]

Who confiscated the plane, is it UK Customs? If the seller hasn't got the plane, did they get the money?

AFAIK all Dalbergia species has been added to CITES Appendix 2, and needs a permit to cross borders. There isn't an exemption based on when the item is made. Although there's one exemption, you can travel freely with a Dalbergia item if it's under 10kg and it's not a sale, not sure if that including sending it though. Correct me if I'm wrong!

 

[D_W]

Who confiscated the plane, is it UK Customs? If the seller hasn't got the plane, did they get the money?

AFAIK all Dalbergia species has been added to CITES Appendix 2, and needs a permit to cross borders. There isn't an exemption based on when the item is made. Although there's one exemption, you can travel freely with a Dalbergia item if it's under 10kg and it's not a sale, not sure if that including sending it though. Correct me if I'm wrong!

Dalbergia Nigra isn't in appendix II, it's appendix I.

D-Nigra was carved out of the dalbergia varieties added to II since it was already in I.

 

[D_W]

Here's the rule for pre-cites specimens. It doesn't require papers, the countries that follow cites can require papers, but they don't have to. The resolution only requires countries to do the following:

"CALLS on Parties to take any necessary measures in order to prevent excessive acquisition of specimens of a species between the date on which the Conference of the Parties approves the inclusion of that species in Appendix I and the date on which the inclusion takes effect; and

REPEALS Resolution Conf. 5.11 (Buenos Aires, 1985) – Definition of the term ‘pre-Convention specimen’."

Whether or not a country requires paperwork for pre-cites items is a matter of preference. It's recommended, not required. Where these groups have gone crazy is applying the standard of "preventing excessive acquisition" in cases where items have zero potential to do that.


https://cites.org/eng/res/13/13-06R16.php

What's even more in poor taste is that no part of this requires the UK government or a shipping agent to confiscate something of this sort and not provide the original seller with the ability to get it back. In this case, even if they deem brazilian rosewood to be something that can't be transferred, it's not something to confiscate and then sell. That's theft. there is no reasonable expectation that the ebay selling price of something is the market price at the time of theft from the prior owner or the owner who has purchased said item.

My second plane purchased two days later is in the united states now on its way to me, and also does not threaten excessive acquisition of brazilian rosewood.

 

[DennisCA]

I've hated their global shipping program from day one.

A big reason really that I stopped using ebay for buying stuff from outside the EU.

 

[RogerP]

I've hated their global shipping program from day one.

A big reason really that I stopped using ebay for buying stuff from outside the EU.

I agree but if it something I really want I ask the seller if they can just stick it in a box and send it "signed for" or whatever the equivalent is in their country - plus the custom's form of course. So far all have seemed only too happy to oblige.

 

[D_W]

There seem to be a lot of sellers in the UK who don't want to do international shipping. This one was one of them, but I did get them to agree to opening up to the global shipping program.

Unfortunately, they stopped the package and confiscated it. I have written to the customs in both countries at this point, though I don't think the item ever got that far (i think it was removed from circulation by the business, not by anyone government related).

My next step is to file a complaint with the West Midlands police where it was seized.

Obviously won't be using the shipping program for this in the future. I used to hate DHL, because they have a habit of giving my packages a country-wide tour in the US before they get to my door, but I'm starting to view them quite favorably at this point just because the planes eventually get here at the end of that.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I've researched eBay's global shipping program (from the USA) recently. It's operated by a third party, IIRC from Minneapolis-St Paul, Minnesota, from a huge warehouse/clearing house on a big industrial estate close to the regional airport. It is not well regarded in the USA and has come in for sufficient criticism that at one point there were rumours that it would be dropped altogether.

Here's why I know this: I recently received a video camera originally sent from Vancouver, Canada, via there, which I didn't order. My wife's trainers (which I did order, as a surprise birthday present) from Atlanta ,GA, never turned up.

The camera had the shoes' shipping #. There was precious little to go on, but by pretending to be part of NCIS, I tracked down the original shipper by a fragment of documentation and part of a sticky label left with the packaging.

They confirmed they had sent it, and how much it was worth (a couple of hundred USD). Both they and I (and the seller of the trainers, who had zero information about his package), all contacted eBay.

Ebay had no interest whatsoever in getting the right things to the right people. They refunded my money (presumably using the seller's funds -- they've done this to me in the past, without authority), but made it very clear that they wouldn't bear any responsibility nor cost for getting the camera either back to the shipper, nor to the purchaser. They wouldn't give out any helpful information either, for example the original camera purchaser, so that I could send it straight there (and enquire if they had a pair of shoes suddenly arrive). Given the nature of the camera I think the Vancouver firm was only using the international shipping program in order to send it across the border into the USA - it was a sophisticated but analogue device, valuable in context but pretty useless elsewhere.

So that was four people disadvantaged by the process, at least two of whom were substantially out of pocket (IIRC, eBay doesn't refund to sellers - their promises are asymmetric).

I've had fragile and big electronic equipment shipped from Alaska in the past (from an eBay auction, but the process was managed by the seller directly. Needless to say, I now regard the international shipping program as a warning sign on eBay listings.

The whole system was much better when they stuck with caveat emptor and just left people to get on with it, also when both buyer and seller could leave feedback about each other. You had to form your own view of the risk involved, and proceed or not on that basis. In those days I almost never had any problems.

Nowadays instead of an honest(ish) broker, eBay is an irritating, interfering third party. You still have to form a view as to risk, anyway, but the system makes it far harder to do simple things. FWIW, I've been an eBay member since some time around 1998 (from before they had any connection to PayPal).

E.

 

[RogerP]

If the seller won't agree to sending the item directly to me by normal insured post I don't buy. Any mention of GSP and forget it!

 

[D_W]

Nowadays instead of an honest(ish) broker, eBay is an irritating, interfering third party. You still have to form a view as to risk, anyway, but the system makes it far harder to do simple things. FWIW, I've been an eBay member since some time around 1998 (from before they had any connection to PayPal).

E.

I've been a member probably since 1996 or so? When they were brand new, I was in college, and I ended up finding out about amazon and ebay trying to find cheaper text books (that never worked out).

I remember my first order from ebay - a computer microphone for 99 cents with shipping. I couldn't believe it, but lost my ID and didn't make more orders until 1999. I still am using my 1999 login ID (which is uncommon for me, I lose everything).

I don't remember when paypal came along or how I paid for the first order - must've been credit card.

Your points about global shipping are correct, I used it only as a last resort, but this was definitely the last time. Especially since they suggested not using it as a solution.

Their customer service is horrible, though. It used to be cable and cell phone companies here with customer service like that, but it was impossible to get to a real person without lying, and then once I did, they quickly showed they don't do customer service. The first person who wrote back to me told me that the plane was seized because "the shipping center couldn't confirm that it had been cleaned". It went downhill from there - I can only conclude it's rosewood and CITES because there are other community posts on ebay that started just about a week and a half ago.

I just think it's not right for them to seize a package and pretend they have no authority over the shipper, the shipper is contracted by them. They don't intervene because they don't want to, they want the money side of the business without the service. I'd be willing to bet that they paid me back with their assets (ebay) and the shipper will give them the proceeds of the sale, so they probably will lose money because the dopey shipper service will probably sell the plane at a salvage auction. It's plain stupid and aside from being wrong, it's dumb.

 

[lurcher]

i want to no what happens to the planes and other items someone is getting some food items

 

[D_W]

They sell them at a liquidation sale that they won't disclose to me.

 

[D_W]

I got an email from the contractor that does the shipping for eBay. As of January 2, 2017, they will seize anything with anu rosewood no matter what. Anything.

Do not use eBay global shipping for tools.

Or anything that could possibly have any kind of rosewood in it, you can't get it back from them. Type of rosewood doesn't matter, type of sale, doesn't matter.