Visual reference sources - dovetail joints

[AndyT]

A discussion in the hand tool thread about skew chisels has drifted on to historical examples of dovetail joints and what we can learn from going and looking at old furniture.

I suspect we don't all have the good fortune to live in houses full of antiques, but there are some good sources of reference pictures on-line.

I particularly like the blog written by "Jack Plane" at http://pegsandtails.wordpress.com/. He builds furniture in historically correct style and discusses all sorts of fascinating details.

This is his photo history of drawer front dovetails - and it includes an interesting argument about why very skinny "London Pattern" pins came to be adopted as a good thing: http://pegsandtails.wordpress.com/2013/02/18/drawer-front-dovetail-evolution/.

I'd also pick out his post on how to make a drawer the mid C18th way: http://pegsandtails.wordpress.com/2012/07/22/constructing-a-mid-eighteenth-century-drawer/.

Has anyone bookmarked any other especially good pictures of historic dovetails? I remember coming across a big photo album on someone's blog but can't find it at the moment.

 

[Racers]

Haddon Hall, Tudor dovetails





Pete

 

[Jacob]

A discussion in the hand tool thread about skew chisels has drifted on to historical examples of dovetail joints and what we can learn from going and looking at old furniture.

I suspect we don't all have the good fortune to live in houses full of antiques, but there are some good sources of reference pictures on-line.

I particularly like the blog written by "Jack Plane" at http://pegsandtails.wordpress.com/. He builds furniture in historically correct style and discusses all sorts of fascinating details.

This is his photo history of drawer front dovetails - and it includes an interesting argument about why very skinny "London Pattern" pins came to be adopted as a good thing: http://pegsandtails.wordpress.com/2013/02/18/drawer-front-dovetail-evolution/.

I'd also pick out his post on how to make a drawer the mid C18th way: http://pegsandtails.wordpress.com/2012/07/22/constructing-a-mid-eighteenth-century-drawer/.

Has anyone bookmarked any other especially good pictures of historic dovetails? I remember coming across a big photo album on someone's blog but can't find it at the moment.

Interesting. He doesn't actually say what the true objective of the thin so called London pattern pins are, or have I missed something?

 

[Eric The Viking]

@Pete: I love the layout marks you can still clearly see!

Interesting angle though. I've heard you can choose any angle you like, within reason. It looks like the maker wasn't overly concerned.

Wikipedia suggests that dovetails pre-date written history, which is somewhat humbling.

E.

 

[AndyT]

Interesting. He doesn't actually say what the true objective of the thin so called London pattern pins are, or have I missed something?

Having skinny pins on the lap dovetails means that as much as possible of the end grain of the drawer fronts is covered up by the drawer sides. Keeping the end grain covered up minimises moisture exchange and consequent expansion/contraction of the wood. So you reduce the risk of 'smiling' or 'frowning' drawers.

 

[Jacob]

Interesting. He doesn't actually say what the true objective of the thin so called London pattern pins are, or have I missed something?

Having skinny pins on the lap dovetails means that as much as possible of the end grain of the drawer fronts is covered up by the drawer sides. Keeping the end grain covered up minimises moisture exchange and consequent expansion/contraction of the wood. So you reduce the risk of 'smiling' or 'frowning' drawers.

Oh yes. Sounds a bit theoretical but could be true.
My theory is that thin single kerf pinholes are quickest and easiest to set out and cut freehand. Maybe a bit of both?

 

[Racers]

'Tis an acute angle, but he didn't trust it or he wouldn't have put the straps on :wink: time will tell if it lasts

Pete

 

[Paul Chapman]

Interesting links, Andy. Thanks for posting.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[AndyT]

My theory is that thin single kerf pinholes are quickest and easiest to set out and cut freehand. Maybe a bit of both?

Maybe so - I can see how it was quick and easy to saw one side, rest the saw in the kerf and just tilt it the other way for the second cut. Having been reading the accounts in Mayhew of starving woodworkers, working 18 hour days, I wonder if a technique that could be done by feel might have saved a few pence on the cost of candles as well!

 

[AndyT]

'Tis an acute angle, but he didn't trust it or he wouldn't have put the straps on :wink: time will tell if it lasts

Pete

Indeed - and I hope that vase of flowers won't spoil the polish! ;-)

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Particularly interesting to see the chronological progression of drawer-front fixings from nailed rebate, via crude dovetails to refined 'London pattern' dovetails.

Illustrative of the fact that just looking at old pieces of furniture in isolation, without careful study of it's development down the centuries and thus being able to put individual pieces in context, could mislead the viewer into thinking that certain 'old ways' are good ways.

 

[Jacob]

Particularly interesting to see the chronological progression of drawer-front fixings from nailed rebate, via crude dovetails to refined 'London pattern' dovetails.

Illustrative of the fact that just looking at old pieces of furniture in isolation, without careful study of it's development down the centuries and thus being able to put individual pieces in context, could mislead the viewer into thinking that certain 'old ways' are good ways.

Certain old ways are good! Not all of them of course. But looking at old stuff wouldn't mislead anybody into the 1/6 or 1/8 delusion, or whatever the numbers are.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I wasn't making a specific point about dovetail angles, I was thinking more broadly.

Looking at older ways is good. However, without a careful assessment of LOTS of older ways, one can be misled into thinking that just because it's old, it's good. That's not necessarily the case. Discriminating and thorough study is required if lessons are to be of real value. The links Andy posted are a good example of such discriminating and thorough study.

 

[Jacob]

.....without a careful assessment of LOTS of older ways, one can be misled into thinking that just because it's old, it's good. .....

Ditto new ways. Just because Alan Peters or Ellis says this is how to do it, is not enough.

 

[rafezetter]

@Pete: I love the layout marks you can still clearly see!

Interesting angle though. I've heard you can choose any angle you like, within reason. It looks like the maker wasn't overly concerned.

Wikipedia suggests that dovetails pre-date written history, which is somewhat humbling.

E.

I was wondering about this, I was thinking about making up my own dovetail angle guide from a bit of metal I have here, and wondered if I HAD to go to the effort of making it 35 deg, or if I could wing it, partly because then my own dovetails would be more individual to me.

As long as it does what it needs I'm guessing I can have a ballpark of 20deg to play with to see what I like.

 

[bugbear]

I was wondering about this, I was thinking about making up my own dovetail angle guide from a bit of metal I have here, and wondered if I HAD to go to the effort of making it 35 deg, or if I could wing it, partly because then my own dovetails would be more individual to me.

As long as it does what it needs I'm guessing I can have a ballpark of 20deg to play with to see what I like.

Ian Kirby's book has an excellent discussion of the design possibilities of varying the parameters of dovetail angle, size and spacing.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

@Pete: I love the layout marks you can still clearly see!

Interesting angle though. I've heard you can choose any angle you like, within reason. It looks like the maker wasn't overly concerned.

Wikipedia suggests that dovetails pre-date written history, which is somewhat humbling.

E.

I was wondering about this, I was thinking about making up my own dovetail angle guide from a bit of metal I have here, and wondered if I HAD to go to the effort of making it 35 deg, or if I could wing it, partly because then my own dovetails would be more individual to me.

As long as it does what it needs I'm guessing I can have a ballpark of 20deg to play with to see what I like.

You don't need a guide. They are much easier and quicker to cut freehand. The pinholes that is, the sockets then being marked from the holes. It might take a bit of practice to hit a consistent angle of your choosing but it's well worth acquiring the skill. The slight variations you get with confident freehand work all add to the charm IMHO. "Perfect" stuff with everything controlled and jigged can look boring. Worst of all is the fashion for deliberately unevenly spaced DTs! :roll:

 

[DTR]

"Perfect" stuff with everything controlled and jigged can look boring. Worst of all is the fashion for deliberately unevenly spaced DTs! :roll:

Surely these two sentences are contradictory? :s

 

[Peter Sefton]

"Perfect" stuff with everything controlled and jigged can look boring. Worst of all is the fashion for deliberately unevenly spaced DTs! :roll:

Surely these two sentences are contradictory? :s

I once made a solid Oak table to a designers drawing he asked for a the table top to be random boards, when delivered he refused the table stating they needed to be selectively random. Oh how I laughed :!:

 

[tim burr]

I once made a solid Oak table to a designers drawing he asked for a the table top to be random boards, when delivered he refused the table stating they needed to be selectively random. Oh how I laughed :!:

Sounds familiar, clients that don't want veneered board but then get upset when solid timber isn't uniform ](*,)