Veritas marking gauge looses its setting

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Life is too short!
Scrolling down and you get an offer of $12 for plans and templates for a DIY marking gauge. Cheaper just to buy a new one, either copy it, or don't bother just use it until it's worn out 50 years hence.
Building a marking gauge is what the 'hand tool woodworker' does after UPS just dropped off 150 board feet of rough sawn lumber meant to be the stock for an 'all hand tool build.' That lumber will still be sitting in the garage when they lay the poor fellow to rest, with a box full of gauges sitting next to it.
 
If you are talking about wooden marking gauges, which we shouldn't be, I need to ask - how many generations of use before they wear out?

Oh please don't ask. You'll hear the story of how he still has the first one he made in a cave, using a flint chip from knapping a spear point.

Pete
 
Life is too short!
Scrolling down and you get an offer of $12 for plans and templates for a DIY marking gauge. Cheaper just to buy a new one, either copy it, or don't bother just use it until it's worn out 50 years hence.
I never go further than the end of videos (if I make it that far). Blackburn pushes vintage mostly.
 
but it wasn't.
Unfortunately it wasn't. And any comments about the inherent drawbacks of these style gauges seemed to be perceived as a knock on Veritas. It has become almost impossible to discuss an inherent flaw in any design without a whole lot of people arching their back, thinking you're insulting their favorite brand. Worse than women bickering about who makes the best shoes -- Prada or Ferragamo.
 
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I'm more interested in Titemark really, as it seems a better design having two screws.
Nothing to do with brand names, no one is getting that impression.

Seems the nay saying has issue with the type to me, and clinging onto something which
gets their point across, which could very well be easily remedied, by the user,
or total re-design if need be would be easy for the tool makers.
I just want to see the design bettered, or at least efforts to improve it which was tested, but proved to have the same issue.

Only then can one have any gripes with the tool makers, if they've got one which
is a vast improvement with uses the same type cutter.
Still thinking on where to get some pipe for cutting leather, might have to drill out a nail instead, but I've heard of folk using an broken old radio aerial for something similar before, if it might do the trick for someone either.
 
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Brake lines from "that" neighbour will work. I suspect like most people your junk drawer has some old pens that you don't use. The metal refills might do the trick.

Pete
 
I'm more interested in Titemark really, as it seems a better design having two screws.
2 screws? Is that why Titemark are £125 each? o_O
Normally it's handy to have two or three and a couple of mortice gauges. Getting on for £1000!!!
They do make mortice gauge add-ons but you need one for each size and have to fiddle about fitting them with allen keys, as far as I can tell. You could make do with one or two gauges but there'd be a lot of fiddling about with associated errors.
All in all they just don't make sense and they cost a bomb.
 
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And they don't even sell one with an offset!, a good reason to make some for those inclined.
Be nice to get it right the first time, but Derek mentioned it can also slip.
 
Just checking out the ludicrously expensive Tite-mark gauge Tite-Mark Marking Gauges
It seems it has a v groove which gives the screw a better grip and I guess less slippage than the Veritas and similar.
Spoils the appearance? But a more sensible square shank would spoil it even more and make it look like a bit of left-over door knob mech.
They all have the same fault in being difficult to grip, having no handles, though some have a token handle like the Quansheng; appearance again - it wouldn't look like such a surgical instrument if it had a great big rubber handle attached, you never see them on scalpels.
They are designed to look surgical and precise, shiny metal, brass knobs, good in a top pocket etc, but it's a big compromise with utility - the old woodies are far easier to use, just as precise and you can get ten for the price of one Tite-mark!
Also the wheel cutter is impossible to adapt into a mortice gauge - unless you count the clumsy and impractical Tite-mark add-on cutters, which would be totally useless on a real job - they are for fantasy woodwork only.
 
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Not looked at them that closely Jacob, to see if there's a milled slot up the stem.

Appearance doesn't come into this, not sure why you think it would, but if I were to have a go...
I'm guessing you might have got that impression, which is much the same as the impression other joiners have defending their "handbags" when in reality, folks are merely stating these are precision tools, and are made to high tolerances.

Not sure where you got the impression you can't grip these?
I've got issues there with that kinda thing, I can't pinch things very well,
but never with these type gauges have I had a problem, and worth noting the Veritas is shorter
again.
Seems to me, you've never used one, as the cutter's bevel keeps the tool up against the work,
and can be re-set to high standards very quickly for other jobs, if you've got a bit of scrap.

Now you know all that, already and jestingly having the rise, but let's discuss the Titemark
from a design perspective.
Money is no object when you can make yer own, it costs the same regardless of the design...
If you can make it handy enough.

Perhaps, that's veering off from your traditional perspective,
but then again, you're into joinery and not cabinet making,
so using different tools for the job at hand.

Tom
 
...

Appearance doesn't come into this,
I think it's 100% appearance
... these are precision tools, and are made to high tolerances.
Yes, but in use they aren't going to be any more accurate than an old woody. You check them both with the same scale, tape or whatever, to exactly the same level of precision.
Not sure where you got the impression you can't grip these?
From using them a few years back. I used to do a lot of marking, maybe at it for a day or more, and handling becomes important
....
Seems to me, you've never used one, as the cutter's bevel keeps the tool up against the work,
Have used one and there's no problem keeping a pin gauge against the work - though there is a bit of a knack involving marking pushing away rather than pulling towards.
and can be re-set to high standards very quickly for other jobs, if you've got a bit of scrap.
As can the old woodies, no prob, if not quicker in fact. Certainly much quicker than trying to use the Tite-mark mortice add-ons.
.... you're into joinery and not cabinet making...
a bit of both and no problem doing precise work.

Taking into account that it's handy to have several gauges on the job if you are doing a serious amount of work, then choosing the woodies becomes the obvious preference, and at a fraction of the price.

I haven't had hands on with these but the Marples at the bottom of this page look like very good value. Tools - Marking & Measuring - Marking Gauges - Page 1 - Workshop Heaven Good to see that you can still buy simple good quality tools and not just flash gear!
Or similar second hand from Ebay, buy an assorted job lot for very little.
 
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A lot more accurate than both of the woodies I used, one mortise gauge being slightly fancy with brass and screws.
Both of those wracked on the stem.
Guess I coulda got some of my densest examples of tropical, and tried re-using the brass bits.
(don't use much beech in my damp workshop)
Seems just easier to make one from some non ferrous or stainless metal instead.

At times it might not give deep enough lines for your work, that's understood,
and tolerance matters to some folk who would have no issue using a woodie
(one what doesn't rack) for the right application.
I don't think you've grasped this.

Tom
 
...
Both of those wracked on the stem.
Depends what you mean but what difference would that make, as long as the pin is firmly held at a fixed distance from the face? But obviously a faulty gauge however made could be less use.
...

At times it might not give deep enough lines for your work, that's understood,
Not sure what your kind of work is but a pin gauge can impart a very fine line if required. There's a bit of a delusion that they are only for "joinery" and not for "fine" work. It's just not true.
and tolerance matters to some folk who would have no issue using a woodie
(one what doesn't rack) for the right application.
What would be the wrong application? Why didn't you fix the "rack"?
I don't think you've grasped this.
Grasped what?

PS These expensive tools may be better made to finer tolerances but the big delusion is that this will somehow convey itself to the work being done with them.
It will not.
It depends first on the competence of the user and secondly on the precision of the measuring used to set the tool, or to measure the outcome. A Tite-mark set against a tape measure is going to be less precise than a battered old woody set against finely graded scale. Using the same measure would give them exactly equal precision.
 
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I have the mortise gauge version of this marking gauge. I was given it as a present. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth they say. Even if it falters. And yes I too have to use it under advisement as it has slipped along the shaft since it came out of the box. It may be slipping quietly to itself as I type this contribution to a thread that has not been as helpful as it could have been. I am going to try lightly sandpapering one of the rods next time I pick it up(as one is more of a slipper than the other) if it helps I will report back. I find this design especially useful when making tiny adjustments to blind dovetails (Rob Cosman explains this in at least one of his wonderful videos) so it is frustrating that has this flaw.
 
I have the mortise gauge version of this marking gauge. I was given it as a present. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth they say. Even if it falters. And yes I too have to use it under advisement as it has slipped along the shaft since it came out of the box. It may be slipping quietly to itself as I type this contribution to a thread that has not been as helpful as it could have been. I am going to try lightly sandpapering one of the rods next time I pick it up(as one is more of a slipper than the other) if it helps I will report back. I find this design especially useful when making tiny adjustments to blind dovetails (Rob Cosman explains this in at least one of his wonderful videos) so it is frustrating that has this flaw.
Apparently it's not intended as a mortice gauge as it is fairly useless as such, as well as prone to slipping. They refer to it only as a "dual" mortice gauge; i.e. you can mark one setting and then the other, but not both together. :rolleyes:
Luckily for them their faithful followers aren't too bothered about such details!
PS LV are very precise about the "dual" nature; one mark and then the other. The normal Marples pattern does both together very easily, which is clearly a technological advance!
 
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I'm more interested in Titemark really, as it seems a better design having two screws.

Tom, the Titemark are better, but not because of two screws. The rod (or blade?) is grooved along its length. The screws drop into the groove. What this does is align the fittings and maintain the settings. The knobs also have set screws to adjust the firmness of the parts. The TM is a well thought out gauge, beautifully made, and a joy to use.

One point about wheel gauges that must not be overlooked - the cutters are incredibly easy to sharpen, and they create a clean, thin line. Even the Japanese gauges I love do not cut this wonderfully precise line.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
.....

One point about wheel gauges that must not be overlooked - the cutters are incredibly easy to sharpen, and they create a clean, thin line. Even the Japanese gauges I love do not cut this wonderfully precise line.
The normal pin gauge never needs sharpening - it's trailed over the surface at an angle and gets sharpened and polished in the process.
And it scores as fine a line as you want, or a deeper one, with a slight turn of the wrist.
And you can buy ten of them for the price of one Titemark.
And they are very comfortable to use if you do a lot of this sort of thing.
And they last forever, more or less.
And you don't have to buy replacement pins.
And the trad mortice gauge works beautifully - wheel gauges are unsuited for this and they don't even pretend to make one.
It's the basic retro design problem. Wheel gauge is a back catalogue idea because they weren't popular or sufficiently useful back then, but there's no reason to thing they would be any more popular/useful now.
 
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Oh, have I missed anything since mid May? I had to stop following this thread as it is just too exciting.
Back then I commented on using wooden gauges . I have absolutely no experience of any wheeled or metal ones so I will give my tuppence worth from total ignorance. I think it time for a recap and roundup.
There has been a lot about accuracy - surely setting a wheel or a pin by eye against a rule gives exactly the same accuracy for both tools, as would setting either against some reference such as a template; but I concede that a dual pin gadget could be easier to set to a chisel width if using the technique on Veritas video) compared to holding the chisel to the pins.
Once set a wooden gauge will retain it's setting (unless worn out) and in theory a metal one should do likewise, except of course this whole thread is about a metal one slipping. I suppose that a wooden gauge has an advantage of a thumbscrew or a slotted screw either will give a greater force than a small knurled screw and tightening onto wood will be less likely to slip than on shiny metal.
Gerard - do the screws tighten directly on the rod? I have a cheap (of course, it's mine so it would be cheap) router that had a slippage problem, I dropped a piece of brass in the thread hole so that goes between the screw and rod and it worked.
A question to the wheelies - if you want to start and stop marking exactly at a line is it easy with a wheel? With a pin it is pretty obvious where you are starting and finishing.
Holding and gripping: I like the feel of a round-top wooden gauge, it seems to just want to be held, like some others I am now finding it harder to grip thin and smooth tools, especially on cold days when the arthritis is playing up, my thought when seeing the metal gauges is that I would have problems but I see that Ttrees finds gripping the metal ones fine.
So I think the original question still has not been successfully answered, but several suggestions have been made on how to stop the Veritas slipping, perhaps it is time for a working answer to be posted (again?).
On the resulting off-question discussion I do not see there being a clear winner - some prefer the metal with wheel(s), others prefer the wooden and the pins, on the way we have had red-herrings to try to justify standpoints without mentioning in any depth that we are individuals with different backgrounds, different experiences, different finances and different views on what we enjoy about woodworking and tools, they are probably more important to our standpoints than the accuracy, ease of use and feel of a tool.

I'm getting to an age when I think about the days slipping by, I can't resist throwing in my views and then think what a waste of time because they won't make a blind bit of difference.

There will always be polarised views because there are members who like to take their time and enjoy the experiences, those who are making a living from their work and use the fastest techniques, those who are interested in traditional ways, those who think anything that does not have a shine and high price tag is worthless and also those who enjoy working with wood but have to resort to using scraps of wood and work in difficult environments.
 
......
There has been a lot about accuracy - surely setting a wheel or a pin by eye against a rule gives exactly the same accuracy for both tools, as would setting either against some reference such as a template; but I concede that a dual pin gadget could be easier to set to a chisel width if using the technique on Veritas video) compared to holding the chisel to the pins.
I'd set a pin mortice gauge to a chisel mark in a bit of scrap, whether a hand chisel or a machine morticer, or just measure it and use the same scale
...... I suppose that a wooden gauge has an advantage of a thumbscrew or a slotted screw either will give a greater force than a small knurled screw and tightening onto wood will be less likely to slip than on shiny metal.
They have a thumb screw with large diameter, wood or plastic, which gives a firmer grip, or mortice gauge with metal screw bearing on a larger diameter button which also gives a firmer grip and doesn't mark the shaft.
..
Holding and gripping: I like the feel of a round-top wooden gauge, it seems to just want to be held,
Exactly
like some others I am now finding it harder to grip thin and smooth tools, especially on cold days when the arthritis is playing up, my thought when seeing the metal gauges is that I would have problems but I see that Ttrees finds gripping the metal ones fine.
Metal ones are a PITA if you are doing a lot.
.....

There will always be polarised views because there are members who like to take their time and enjoy the experiences, those who are making a living from their work and use the fastest techniques, those who are interested in traditional ways,
trad marking gauges much faster and easier to use than the new metal ones
those who think anything that does not have a shine and high price tag is worthless and also those who enjoy working with wood but have to resort to using scraps of wood and work in difficult environments.
 
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