Using mahogany

[Nick Gibbs]

In his new series, I Bought a Rainforest, Charlie Hamilton James asks why we still use mahogany in Britain. The programme was naive and dubious in many ways, but it made me think. There are so many conflicts regarding trade, illegal logging and biodiversity. I'm not looking for answers to that. I have one simple question.

If we want to protect mahogany trees (which are so close to extinction), should we stop using any mahogany (even recycled), so that the look just goes out of fashion. I am thinking of burning my small stock of old mahogany for that reason, but can't decide what to do.

 

[custard]

Is mahogany close to extinction? I thought there were managed plantations of it.

And regarding going out of fashion, it went out of fashion some years ago along with pretty much all "dark brown" antique or antique style furniture (just look at how antique furniture prices have crashed). Consequently you should hang on to your stock, to be honest burning it would just be an empty gesture.

 

[Nick Gibbs]

Is mahogany close to extinction? I thought there were managed plantations of it. Consequently you should hang on to your stock, to be honest burning it would just be an empty gesture.

Perhaps close to extinction is pushing it, sorry, but it is in very short supply I think you'll find. I haven't heard of plantation mahogany, and if there is any it will take generations to be available. Meanwhile primary mahogany will be logged legally or otherwise. It's all so complicated. It is the illegal logging that is such a problem. But I appreciate your comment that it's an empty gesture. You may well be right.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I read long ago that 90% of rainforest timber is actually burnt, and that Japan takes the majority of the rest (although it's probably China, now). Britain used something like 10% of the remaining 10%.

These figures might be total garbage, of course.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I think I might be just as worried about the Chinese wholesale stripping of Indonesia and Africa of anything of value.

 

[tomatwark]

Is mahogany close to extinction? I thought there were managed plantations of it. Consequently you should hang on to your stock, to be honest burning it would just be an empty gesture.

Perhaps close to extinction is pushing it, sorry, but it is in very short supply I think you'll find. I haven't heard of plantation mahogany, and if there is any it will take generations to be available. Meanwhile primary mahogany will be logged legally or otherwise. It's all so complicated. It is the illegal logging that is such a problem. But I appreciate your comment that it's an empty gesture. You may well be right.

Nick

FSC planation grown Mahogany is available in this country now, although it is very expensive which will put most people off having stuff made in it.

Can't say I have bought any though as it is not a fashionable timber at the moment most of my customers are tending towards the temperate hardwoods.

But I can't see what advantage burning all your stock of Mahogany would do, is not a bigger waste to do that than make something that is going to last out of it.

The illegal logging is a big business in the former eastern block with regard to Oak as well, are you going to burn your Oak stocks as well ?


Tom

 

[StevieB]

Don't burn it, that serves no purpose. Either use it for restoration or sell it to a restorer. Burning it means others cannot use it and will therefore source new timber for their requirements. By all means do not make anything 'new' from it, which will achieve your aim (theoretically at least!).

Steve

 

[Nick Gibbs]

I think I might be just as worried about the Chinese wholesale stripping of Indonesia and Africa of anything of value.

I agree. I'm just uncertain what to do myself, having spent years using British hardwoods and lesser-known exotics, and now wonder if there's more I could be doing, especially to limit illegal logging. Maybe it's time to focus on mahogany, and argue that the risks of continuing to use it are too great. One way to stop its use is to change tastes. In the past I've published articles about how to replicate mahogany. Now I'm wondering if I should be doing that, and rather promoting different colours and textures and grain patterns. It's similar to the debate over whether to burn or sell ivory stocks.

 

[tomatwark]

It is a tricky one, but as Steve says if someone wants they will get it.

Tom

 

[Nick Gibbs]

The illegal logging is a big business in the former eastern block with regard to Oak as well, are you going to burn your Oak stocks as well ? Tom

Probably a very good point. I haven't got any Eastern European oak, so that's not an issue for me, and I use very little wood, and don't have to worry much about competitive pricing, so my point is rather more academic than practical I expect. The responses have made me think about it from other angles though. So thanks.

 

[Nick Gibbs]

Don't burn it, that serves no purpose. Either use it for restoration or sell it to a restorer. Burning it means others cannot use it and will therefore source new timber for their requirements. By all means do not make anything 'new' from it, which will achieve your aim (theoretically at least!). Steve

I like that approach. Thanks.

 

[Racers]

I made a bird box front an old mahogany headboard, poshest box on the street!

Should last as well.

Pete

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I think I might be just as worried about the Chinese wholesale stripping of Indonesia and Africa of anything of value.

I agree. I'm just uncertain what to do myself, having spent years using British hardwoods and lesser-known exotics, and now wonder if there's more I could be doing, especially to limit illegal logging. Maybe it's time to focus on mahogany, and argue that the risks of continuing to use it are too great. One way to stop its use is to change tastes. In the past I've published articles about how to replicate mahogany. Now I'm wondering if I should be doing that, and rather promoting different colours and textures and grain patterns. It's similar to the debate over whether to burn or sell ivory stocks.

Surely Nick, given the role you occupy, the greatest influence you could personally bring to bear would be to publish the facts about Mahogany misuse to inform and influence the trade. I accept it's a little on the environmental side rather than making, but its entirely relevant in much the same way as conserving cod is relevant to fishermen. I think Hollywood is doing likewise for those of you who have kids and have seen Rio 2. The primary theme is about defeating illegal loggers in the Amazon. The message goes to all the kids and parents and hopefully has an influence on consumption which is always the fastest way to kill an illegal industry....hit em in the pocket.

 

[Nick Gibbs]

Surely Nick, given the role you occupy, the greatest influence you could personally bring to bear would be to publish the facts about Mahogany misuse to inform and influence the trade. I accept it's a little on the environmental side rather than making, but its entirely relevant in much the same way as conserving cod is relevant to fishermen. I think Hollywood is doing likewise for those of you who have kids and have seen Rio 2. The primary theme is about defeating illegal loggers in the Amazon. The message goes to all the kids and parents and hopefully has an influence on consumption which is always the fastest way to kill an illegal industry....hit em in the pocket.

To be honest, that's exactly why I raised the issue. I wanted to tease out some debate from an extreme viewpoint. The parallels with the ivory trade are significant. Mahogany will be felled to extinction unless we do something about it. The controls are too lax, and plantations ineffective, except in producing such poor timber that everyone will be put off the stuff!!!!! I suspect only nature and time can produce prime mahogany. I was intrigued how I should respond to the programme's points.

 

[tomatwark]

We have been had by Nick :lol:

Seriously though if you are going to write something about this, some thought should be given to the illegal logging of temperate timber as well as I suspect alot comes into the country through the cheap Oak furniture market and also if reusing timber in existing furniture is such a bad crime.

Tom

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Surely Nick, given the role you occupy, the greatest influence you could personally bring to bear would be to publish the facts about Mahogany misuse to inform and influence the trade. I accept it's a little on the environmental side rather than making, but its entirely relevant in much the same way as conserving cod is relevant to fishermen. I think Hollywood is doing likewise for those of you who have kids and have seen Rio 2. The primary theme is about defeating illegal loggers in the Amazon. The message goes to all the kids and parents and hopefully has an influence on consumption which is always the fastest way to kill an illegal industry....hit em in the pocket.

To be honest, that's exactly why I raised the issue. I wanted to tease out some debate from an extreme viewpoint. The parallels with the ivory trade are significant. Mahogany will be felled to extinction unless we do something about it. The controls are too lax, and plantations ineffective, except in producing such poor timber that everyone will be put off the stuff!!!!! I suspect only nature and time can produce prime mahogany. I was intrigued how I should respond to the programme's points.

Right....so we should in fact never take you at face value again then right? (Bloody journalists) (hammer)

I'm kidding by the way in case someone mistakes my intention.

 

[Nick Gibbs]

We have been had by Nick. Seriously though if you are going to write something about this, some thought should be given to the illegal logging of temperate timber as well as I suspect alot comes into the country through the cheap Oak furniture market and also if reusing timber in existing furniture is such a bad crime. Tom

Only up to a point. I haven't made up my mind yet. Giving it to a restorer may be the best idea, but I've had some amazing responses to an email I sent out to 1000s of woodworkers on this topic, saying what I was considering. A few agreed with me, though I don't think burning is a clever solution because there are more suitable species for heat and power generation. Many people have suggested making something special to sell and raise awareness, but that's sort of exactly why I was raising the issue of whether we should be promoting mahogany in any way any longer. So I'm still undecided, and favour using timber straight from the tree, but I know that is very difficult in a commercial setting.

 

[StevieB]

From a non-woodworker point of view (which most of the customers of our end products are) Mahogany is still seen as a prestige timber carrying cachet and priced accordingly. If it heavily features in the antique trade (which it does) then there is still the associated 'snob-factor' that goes with it. Your parallels with ivory are interesting, but as an elephant (especially a baby one) is more attractive than a tree (especially a sapling) I suspect you will have to work a lot harder to change peoples views. After all, the slaughter of an elephant is an evocative image that can be harnessed to the cause of conservation - the felling of a tree is less emotionally disturbing.

Has ivory use decreased because of awareness of the slaughter of elephants, or because of increased punishment for poachers/traders/resellers? Ivory is still very much in demand in Chinese medicine, but harsh penalties for trading and dealing in things made from (fresh ie non-antique) ivory through the legitimate market have pretty much stopped that aspect of the trade. Until the same penalties are imposed on other substances (in this case mahogany) trade in them will continue if fear of punishment does not outweigh the benefit of supply. If demand is there, someone will be willing to supply. We need a multi stage approach of proper enforcement at the logging stage as well as attempts to reduce demand at the consumer end. I am not sure there is any appetite to 'ban' trade in mahogany furniture in the same way there has been for banning the trade in ivory however - at the end of the day a tree is seen as less important than an animal, and even there cuteness wins:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... gners.html

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... nservation

As posted above, highlighting the issue through the media is one way of approaching this, but targeting the furniture market (suppliers and buyers in particular) may be another way of approaching this with a greater impact - mahogany is expensive as it is, so we are not taking mass market Ikea type production here.

Steve

 

[John15]

I understand your worries Nick but I'm afraid the genie is out of the bottle - the destruction of the rainforests, like the ice caps and global warming, is out of control and we are going to have to learn to live with the consequences. There is to much big money and corruption for the felling to stop. I have visited South America many times, including remote parts of Amazonia and The Andes in search of new bird species for my World list. On each visit I have witnessed logging on a huge scale and then, after the prime trees have been removed the remaining forest is burnt for rough grazing, palm oil plantations and legal/illegal gold mining. South East Asia is also badly affected - just look at Borneo and The Philippines, forests almost gone, just Palm Oil plantations as far as the eye can see.
Sorry to be gloomy but that's the way I see it.
Regards,
John

 

[Nick Gibbs]

Though I'm obviously not unaware of my position, I raised the question largely as a personal response to the programme as a woodworker, wondering aloud what I should be doing. The ivory parallel is fascinating, and a couple of people are doing some research for me on the effectiveness of that campaign. I'm not convinced burning ivory has stopped poaching, it may just have raised the price, but it may have focused some people's minds on poaching and illegality, which is at least a start.