Using mahogany

[Nick Gibbs]

I am not sure it's like ivory. One could be renewably farmed and the other always involves killing animals.

Well, yes and no. Actually you can breed elephants much more quickly than you can grow a mahogany tree, and mahogany trees don't get funding from tourism for the hundred or so years it takes to bring them to maturity. I think a small protest might actually win some support and raise awareness.

 

[Lons]

Hi Nick

I take a different view in some respects and the thought of burning, destroying or bespoiling ANY of my precious wood fills me with horror. I save absolutely everything that's salvageable and only dispose of when of no use whatsoever then it's given to a neighbour to keep himself and cat warm.

I have never bought a single piece of new mahogany but have a fair stock, some of which is very nice and sizeable. I have a quantity of large offcuts gleaned from the Riley snooker table factory 30 years ago as well as decent bits salvaged from shopfitters (banks / buiding society re-furbs) and ex school lab benches. All of this wood was skipped and destined to be destroyed and I managed to get only a fraction, the rest being wasted. The scale of this is shocking and would make any woodworkers eyes water. It's just more expensive to reclaim and handle than it is to dispose of.

The emphasis IMO should be on salvage and recycle rather than the destruction of existing materials which in turn could satisfy some of the demand for this species without increasing popularity in which case evry board used is one less new imported. Perhaps over simplistic but I think a valid argument. It also helps the move to reduce landfill.

Education and publication is the only way forward which is where you and your colleagues come in but you're targeting the wrong audience on the forums as I very much doubt if anyone on here uses enough volume to make even a pinprick of difference, we're just the "little boys". Decisions will always be made for financial and political reasons first and formost and I can only wish you luck persuading that lot! :roll:

regards
Bob

ps
Received the email from you today but rather than a seperate reply, can you count these comments as my response?

 

[Nick Gibbs]

I understand, Lons, and yes I will take this as your response. I've had an amazing number of replies!!

I agree about education and publication, but also think the time may sometimes come for more direct action. I hate wasting wood, but the smoke from my small stock might have a larger impact than anything else I can do. Certainly debating the point has inspired more people to contact me than any of the many articles I've written on the subject in the past.

 

[Lons]

Yes nick
We all have to do what our concience dictates and mine screams "don't waste anything". Your voice has a lot more power than mine and hopefully you might start to make a difference but I can't agree that burning your stock is of any value unless it's a journalistic metaphor :wink:

Your motives can't be questioned Nick so good luck in your noble quest as certainly something needs to be done though as a previous post stated "the genie is out of the bottle".

regards
Bobn

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I've 72 feet of 12" x 1 1/4" finished that my mother bought for a job that didn't come off in 1978 - and no, I'm not burning it.

 

[Nick Gibbs]

I can't agree that burning your stock is of any value unless it's a journalistic metaphor

I certainly won't do it if it's of no value. The mahogany came from an old cabinet of my grandmother's so I wouldn't do it lightly, and unless I felt it was worth it. I'd do it as a combo of conscience and symbolism, but I'm not decided yet. It is an important step to take. I've burnt far more offcuts in my workshop stove without thinking, but this would be a more dramatic statement I think. I'm far from sure yet.

 

[Lons]

I've 72 feet of 12" x 1 1/4" finished that my mother bought for a job that didn't come off in 1978 - and no, I'm not burning it.

Wasamarra Phil, can't find a job big enough :lol:
Would be criminal to waste that.

Bob

 

[Lons]

I can't agree that burning your stock is of any value unless it's a journalistic metaphor

I certainly won't do it if it's of no value. The mahogany came from an old cabinet of my grandmother's so I wouldn't do it lightly, and unless I felt it was worth it. I'd do it as a combo of conscience and symbolism, but I'm not decided yet. It is an important step to take. I've burnt far more offcuts in my workshop stove without thinking, but this would be a more dramatic statement I think. I'm far from sure yet.

That would be a huge and difficult decision Nick.

My waste argument apart I very much doubt I could ever do that. My parents / grandparents are dead and destroying something which they presumably treasured would be difficult for me to accept.

regards
Bob

 

[Benchwayze]

Nick ..

Some years ago, I watched on TV, the burning of thousands of poundsworth of Ivory. A monstrous pile of elephant tusks. I could appreciate why it was burned, but I did see it as an empty gesture. I wondered just how much of that money could have been ploughed back into protection of the elephants. Of course that raised the question; would flooding the market have devalued ivory (And there really was that much ivory there) and if so for how long? I suppose selling it would have defeated the object of the legislation; but doesn't that in itself become part of the problem? As long as it is scarce it will be valuable, and there is always someone who wants the stuff regardless. It's a tricky one but as already said, burning your mahogany would have only one positive; a warm room. Burning all that ivory didn't bring back the elephants, and burning your mahogany isn't going to bring back the trees it was taken from. And also, it would add to carbon dioxide pollution.

That's my take, FWIW!

John

 

[Lons]

Well said John =D> =D> My feelings exactly.

I too watched the ivory burning with mixed feelings. I would love to carve some ivory but would never do it because in the majority of cases, an animal has lost its life to procure it. Not all of course as the ivory from elephants that die naturally is also destroyed and the argument could easily be expanded to include all animals which are killed for meat and skins etc.

Bob

ps
I'd add that although I don't agree with Nicks approach I think he should be applauded for raising the issue and for being prepared to take a stand to reinforce his point.

 

[Nick Gibbs]

It strikes me, John, that fiddling with the market can work, but it can also end in tears. Ultimately the most powerful action is to change perceptions and demand, though legislation can have an influence. The parallel to smoking is quite interesting. In many quarters this is now considered as socially unacceptable. It is a remarkable turnaround.

 

[Lons]

The parallel to smoking is quite interesting. In many quarters this is now considered as socially unacceptable. It is a remarkable turnaround.

Definitely but drive past any high school at hometime and you might get a shock at the number of teenagers smoking on their way home. I don't know why or what the answer is but as someone who has never smoked and is dead set against it, I find that quite worrying.
Bob

 

[Nick Gibbs]

Definitely but drive past any high school at hometime and you might get a shock at the number of teenagers smoking on their way home. I don't know why or what the answer is but as someone who has never smoked and is dead set against it, I find that quite worrying. Bob

I did wonder about that, and agree. Not sure where the parallel starts and stops. There are perhaps two issues:

1. How do you give teenagers/woodworkers alternative courses of action so that they never start smoking/using exotics?
2. How do you wean teenagers/woodworkers off smoking/exotics once they've started?

I suppose you have to make the alternative more exciting. I have two teenage daughters, and can only hope they don't smoke. They do a fair bit of sport, and I think smoking finds them out then.

Perhaps to make timber choice more exciting we have to encourage people to get more involved in buying wood locally from local sawmills etc…. and knowing more about what they are buying.

 

[Lons]

I think that's exactly the problem Nick (my sympathies on having two daughters :wink: - much harder work than sons :lol: ). Hope your daughters never smoke. My kids didn't but my worry at the time was if they did they would be more exposed to the possibilities of trying canabis and manybe worse as well.

It's the old carrot and stick argument. Stick on it's own rarely works and the UK is very small fry in the overall picture these days so how much we can influence world trade in timber use.

How do you devalue something that's in short supply or not available legally. As long as people want it they will get it and it's always the genuine small and law abiding users who pay the price.

cheers

Bob

 

[Benchwayze]

I smoked thirty-five years ago. My two children never did. (Maybe they tried it and didn't like the experience; I don't know!) So I don't think it's 100% example from parents. I rather fancy it was my constantly telling them to do as I said, and not as I did. I don't know what I could have done had they defied me; but that didn't stop me threatening them with all sorts of doom! :lol: Main thing is, maybe it worked. My eldest grand-daughter is of the age to start, but she doesn't show the slightest inclination, despite that her closest friend smokes. Maybe she has more sense than me then!

Why did I start smoking? A little peer pressure when I joined the RN at 15, and also feeling 'left-out' at stand-easy, (tea-break) because I didn't smoke. So I started, even though there would be no duty free tobacco until I joined the Fleet. I was also fully aware that my old Dad wouldn't find out. Which tells me, had I not enlisted, then probably I would not have started the smoking habit.

I don't smoke at all now, and rarely think about the coffin-nails. I sometimes miss my Falcon clay-bowl pipe and Mellow Virginia tobacco! But I wouldn't dream of recommissioning them!

No more of my going on about smoking. Promise!

John

 

[Phil Pascoe]

It is said that if you wish to change the world, you do it one person at a time - but I do think that it is one child at a time. I think the beliefs and values with which you are imbued as a child are more unwavering. We should attempt to ensure our children value the planet more than we and our ancestors did.

 

[Eric The Viking]

It is said that if you wish to change the world, you do it one person at a time - but I do think that it is one child at a time. I think the beliefs and values with which you are imbued as a child are more unwavering. We should attempt to ensure our children value the planet more than we and our ancestors did.

You're right, but it's not easy - everything is so politicised these days.

I've had three children go through GCSE and A-Level science, geography and world development courses. The level of political dogma involved is terrible: rather than teaching children to think robustly for themselves they are given 'facts' which are realy the result of successful political lobbying by interest groups.

Take 'green' energy: Most of it simply isn't, of you look beyond the sales hype. I'm not a denier of climate change - far from it - for decades as a family we've recycled, repaired instead of replaced, and used solar energy long before any of that was fashionable (or subsidised - grrr!).

But you can measure the energy that has to go into the huge concrete foundations of a windmill, the cost of the extension to the national grid, the maintenance cost (in energy terms), the lifespan, and the real generating capacity. You can also cost outr the diesel-generator cover required for days when the wind doesn't blow, and agonise over the fact we can't store any of the 'free' energy we get, so a lot of the time it's generating power we cannot actually use!

Why aren't kids being given all this as classroom exercises to examine? The sums aren't hard, merely unattractive to politicians and investors (if the issues weren't deliberately hidden we probably wouldn't be building the things and certainly not subsidising them!). Follow the money: children are actually getting a sophisticarted sales pitch, to encourage them to consume in a certain way that benefits big business (mainly).

I've tried to bring mine up to be independently minded, but it's hard. Very often I seem to be antagonistic towards teachers, which naturally upsets the children. I don't want to criticise teachers in this, but they are often supine and accepting of the status quo, and not the independent rigorous professionals they ought to be.

Sorry, rant over!

E.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Yes, you have to accept that you object to windfarms you'are a "climate change denier" - the fact they are useless doesn't enter the argument, just as if you object to the eu you are a rabid xenophobe. I love the quote on another thread - Don't argue with an silly person. The best possible outcome is that you win an argument with an silly person.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Interesting debate. May I pose a question?

I was under the impression that whilst Brazilian mahogany should be avoided as probably being logged illigally, Honduras mahogany is plantation grown and thus sustainable. However - that's just an impression formed over years of reading a couple of woodworking magazines, and browsing timber dealers' websites. So the impression may not be right.

Where does one find reliable information? I don't doubt the honesty of well-established and reputable UK timber merchants, but how can they be abolutely sure that the people they buy from, and the whole of the chain back to the loggers, are all just as honest? There are environmental groups publishing information, but whilst I don't doubt the sincerity of the likes of Friends of the Earth and Greenpeace, I do doubt their objectivity and honesty (a view formed after many years of listening to their attacks on other industries, some of which I have professional knowledge of and am in a position to see the environmentalists' dishonesty).

Where do we - ordinary woodworkers using relatively little timber, in the main - find accurate information?

 

[Nick Gibbs]

I was under the impression that whilst Brazilian mahogany should be avoided as probably being logged illigally, Honduras mahogany is plantation grown and thus sustainable. However - that's just an impression formed over years of reading a couple of woodworking magazines, and browsing timber dealers' websites. So the impression may not be right. Where does one find reliable information?

I doubt you can buy Honduran mahogany, but I may be wrong. The information should be provided by people like me. That is what we are paid to do, and having raised the issue I will do my best to fulfil that promise. I will start with mahogany and go from there. There are so many species to cover, but perhaps focusing on one will help clarify the situation. As others have mentioned, 'mahogany' is used to describe many species. I will try to clarify that too.