Tutorials on Frame and Panel (with Mouldings) by Hand?

[J_SAMa]

I spent the last hour trying to track down tutorials on doing frame and panel construction with hand tools. I didn't find much...
I understand the basic mortising and tenoning and grooving of the frame, etc. What I can't wrap my head around is how the tenon shoulder is "coped" to fit the adjacent piece. Power router users use something called profile-scribing bits to do this. What would be the hand tool predecessor/counterpart to these?
Or is the construction different, simpler with hand tools?

I did find a good tutorial on none-moulded frame and panel construction: http://tonykonovaloff.com/?page_id=59

Sam

 

[AndyT]

I followed the description in Charles Hayward's book on woodwork joints when I made these doors: https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/glazed-doors-mostly-by-hand-t39419.html. They were for glazing not for panels so were rebated not grooved but the technique for coping is the same.

You could also watch Roy Underhill here:

http://video.pbs.org/video/2292074921/

 

[Jacob]

There's a halfway cheat between scribing and mitreing where you do much as Andy has done in his link*. But instead make the mitre cut on the rail steeper than 45º - then the opposing scribed moulding in the stile is just nipped out (scribing gouge) enough to cover the mitre on the rail moulding. It's easier and works just as well.

*just noticed he has scribed the rail moulding to meet the stile. It's usually done the other way so that any shrinkage in the rail and opening of joints will be covered by the scribe. Otherwise you might as well mitre both sides. The whole point of a scribed joint is that it covers the join and any movement will not be seen.

PS I don't much like Tony K's mitres in plain un-moulded panels. Seems pointless and fussy to me. Much neater straight through in the traditional way; a better and easier joint.

 

[AndyT]

*just noticed he has scribed the rail moulding to meet the stile. It's usually done the other way so that any shrinkage in the rail and opening of joints will be covered by the scribe. Otherwise you might as well mitre both sides. The whole point of a scribed joint is that it covers the join and any movement will not be seen.

Oops! Thanks for that. I hope it will serve as an example of the difference between learning something from a book and being properly trained!

 

[J_SAMa]

I followed the description in Charles Hayward's book on woodwork joints when I made these doors: https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/glazed-doors-mostly-by-hand-t39419.html. They were for glazing not for panels so were rebated not grooved but the technique for coping is the same.

You could also watch Roy Underhill here:

http://video.pbs.org/video/2292074921/

What if the mouldings were more complex? I can't imagine how hard it is to place the cuts so accurately :shock:.

 

[woodbrains]

*just noticed he has scribed the rail moulding to meet the stile. It's usually done the other way so that any shrinkage in the rail and opening of joints will be covered by the scribe. Otherwise you might as well mitre both sides. The whole point of a scribed joint is that it covers the join and any movement will not be seen.

PS I don't much like Tony K's mitres in plain un-moulded panels. Seems pointless and fussy to me. Much neater straight through in the traditional way; a better and easier joint.

Hello,

The stiles are generally scribed as, if there are intermediate rails, it will be more logical to do it that way, and leave nothing to do at the rail tenons except just cut the shoulders straight across. It does not actually matter whether the rail or stile is scribed, in fact, as any shrinkage will be hidden by the scribe, which ever way around it is done. In fact the router cope and stick joints have to do it this way.

Tony K's mitred joints are extra work, but look elegant, so may be worth the extra work. Not everything is done for expediency, sometimes there is an aesthetic reason for doing a thing. Anyway, for a clean modern look, a chamfer along the edges, right up to the tenon shoulder, needs to be done with mitred tenon shoulders like this. Running something like a corner bead needs to be done this way also, as you cannot scribe a bead.

Mike.

 

[AndyT]

What if the mouldings were more complex? I can't imagine how hard it is to place the cuts so accurately :shock:.

Scribing like this will only work on any moulding except if the cross section has a re-entrant curve; almost all mouldings don't have that, because of the tools used to make them.

The important part is to cut the mitre - the back of it gives you the line to cut to. A more complex shape would need different sizes of gouge whereas this simple ovolo needs just one, in a matching size and shape.

My posting really was of the first time I had done joints like this so I hope it will encourage you to have a go. (Real skill would come in cutting lots of them fast enough to make a living at it. )

 

[Jacob]

.... It does not actually matter whether the rail or stile is scribed, in fact, as any shrinkage will be hidden by the scribe, which ever way around it is done.

If a scribed rail pulls away the joint will be opened. If the stile is scribed the opened joint would be still covered by the scribe. It's also important for weathering of external joinery

In fact the router cope and stick joints have to do it this way.

Another reason for not using a router! What exactly is "cope and stick"? It's an American term I think*

Tony K's mitred joints are extra work, but look elegant, so may be worth the extra work.

Matter of opinion - I think they look fussy and illogical. They remind me of those irregular spaced DTs which some woodworkers admire but are similarly fussy and pointless.

PS yes it is. Means the same as "scribed" joint apparently.. I understand the cope bit but what is the stick?

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

If the rail pulls away you have an open joint visible right along the tenon shoulder, worrying about the scribe covering the moulding is a bit senseless, the joint has lost its integrity and needs repairing. During normal expansion and shrinkage, it does not matter which side has the scribe, both members will expand and contract similarly. In the main, I would scribe the stiles, but it is not wrong doing it the other way, per se.

Sticking is an old word for forming a moulding, English or American, and cope is fairly interchangeable with scribe. We use coping saws after all. In fact why do we scribe skirting boards etc with a coping saw? We should use the word cope more often, or refer to the saw as a scribing saw.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

......In the main, I would scribe the stiles, but it is not wrong doing it the other way, per se.

It is wrong in theory and often wrong in practice.. Scribing the stiles is good practice, scribing the rails is bad, for the reasons I've given - basically it gives a bit of protection to the joint if there is any movement. If you scribe the rail you might as well just do a mitre as it's easier. The whole point of scribing is to cover the joint.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

The stiles are generally scribed as, if there are intermediate rails, it will be more logical to do it that way, and leave nothing to do at the rail tenons except just cut the shoulders straight across. It does not actually matter whether the rail or stile is scribed, in fact, as any shrinkage will be hidden by the scribe, which ever way around it is done. In fact the router cope and stick joints have to do it this.

Mike.

And almost all doors you will ever see in houses and kitchen cupboards made on the spindle moulder have scribed rails, too.

Andy T has done a fine job with his scribed joinery, well done.

Mike.

 

[bugbear]

Sticking is an old word for forming a moulding, English or American, and cope is fairly interchangeable with scribe. We use coping saws after all. In fact why do we scribe skirting boards etc with a coping saw? We should use the word cope more often, or refer to the saw as a scribing saw.

Mike.

And also the old gadget - the "sticking board".

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Hello,

The stiles are generally scribed as, if there are intermediate rails, it will be more logical to do it that way, and leave nothing to do at the rail tenons except just cut the shoulders straight across. It does not actually matter whether the rail or stile is scribed, in fact, as any shrinkage will be hidden by the scribe, which ever way around it is done. In fact the router cope and stick joints have to do it this.

Mike.

And almost all doors you will ever see in houses and kitchen cupboards made on the spindle moulder have scribed rails, too. ......

No they don't. Not the traditional ones at any rate (say pre WW2 when they still knew what they were doing). Nor the windows. A scribed rail would be seen as a mistake - for the reasons I've given. Not that it'd make much difference in most cases, but there are standards!
It's for better weathering first, and better accommodation of movement second.

 

[richarnold]

*just noticed he has scribed the rail moulding to meet the stile. It's usually done the other way so that any shrinkage in the rail and opening of joints will be covered by the scribe. Otherwise you might as well mitre both sides. The whole point of a scribed joint is that it covers the join and any movement will not be seen.

Oops! Thanks for that. I hope it will serve as an example of the difference between learning something from a book and being properly trained!

Pleased don't be discouraged Andy. The method you have demonstrated is the correct text book way, and after over 30 years of being a joiner I have never seen it done any other way. This includes taking apart dozens of 18th and 19th century doors and windows. Rails shrink in there width. jambs and stiles are firmly glued at the shoulder and shrink from the outer edge hence why you see projecting end grain of the tennons on old doors and windows. Every 19th and early 20th century text book I have ever seen shows scribing carried out in this manner.

 

[Jacob]

*just noticed he has scribed the rail moulding to meet the stile. It's usually done the other way so that any shrinkage in the rail and opening of joints will be covered by the scribe. Otherwise you might as well mitre both sides. The whole point of a scribed joint is that it covers the join and any movement will not be seen.

Oops! Thanks for that. I hope it will serve as an example of the difference between learning something from a book and being properly trained!

Pleased don't be discouraged Andy. The method you have demonstrated is the correct text book way, and after over 30 years of being a joiner I have never seen it done any other way. This includes taking apart dozens of 18th and 19th century doors and windows. Rails shrink in there width. jambs and stiles are firmly glued at the shoulder and shrink from the outer edge hence why you see projecting end grain of the tennons on old doors and windows. Every 19th and early 20th century text book I have ever seen shows scribing carried out in this manner.

I don't think he is discouraged is he? It's OK to talk about different ways of doing things you know. It's only woodwork!
What I am saying is what I was taught, makes good sense (especially the weathering detail) and is what I've seen after taking apart hundreds of old doors and windows.
That word "correct" has popped up again :lol: In fact there are many "text book" ways written up. Often they re-hash stuff from other text books. Occasionally they even change from one edition to the next - it's worth having a few different editions so you can follow changing views on design and detailing..

 

[AndyT]

This is all very interesting but Sam, are you any better informed?

Have you managed to watch the Roy Underhill video?

And weren't you also asking about the panels? There are some subtleties there to explore - the many different ways of getting a thick centre and a thin edge; how to size panels to fit the frame; how to glue and assemble. I'm not at a PC just now to check but there is probably good free detail in Cassell's Carpentry and Joinery ed Hasluck and in Ellis - both available for download.

 

[Jacob]

Raised and fielded stuff here but it omits the simplest and most common option which is raised and fielded but without the tongue round the edge - just tapered to the edge instead. This isn't primarily decorative but is a way of getting a thick (stiffer) panel into a thin frame, almost always with the raised and fielded side on the back, plain flat to the front (best) side. It makes a nice planing exercise and very quick to do by hand.

 

[G S Haydon]

Hello,

The stiles are generally scribed as, if there are intermediate rails, it will be more logical to do it that way, and leave nothing to do at the rail tenons except just cut the shoulders straight across. It does not actually matter whether the rail or stile is scribed, in fact, as any shrinkage will be hidden by the scribe, which ever way around it is done. In fact the router cope and stick joints have to do it this.

Mike.

And almost all doors you will ever see in houses and kitchen cupboards made on the spindle moulder have scribed rails, too. ......

No they don't. Not the traditional ones at any rate (say pre WW2 when they still knew what they were doing). Nor the windows. A scribed rail would be seen as a mistake - for the reasons I've given. Not that it'd make much difference in most cases, but there are standards!
It's for better weathering first, and better accommodation of movement second.

I would agree that all joinery I have seen or worked on has scribed tenon shoulders. The weathering might be an issue however as old windows are face puttied from the outside the scribed joint is only internal and does not get weathered. The only thing than can occur on single glazed windows is condensation. This then sits on horizontal members and if windows are no looked after the junction between glass and timber will rot. I'm yet to encounter a window old or new that has rotted on a scribe (although of course this could happen)

On glazed doors the system above applies. On external paneled doors the rails are left square with detailing such as a bead flush panel or an applied panel mould fixed so scribing is less frequently used.

On Jacobs point (with full respect to his experience and approach) I can see that on a bottom rail to style joint, scribing the style would protect the joint and if movement happened the scribe would be more water resistant. However scribing the the tenon shoulder as a default does not keep me up at night and we will retain the same system that has been the dominant system for a long long time.

 

[Jacob]

...... The only thing than can occur on single glazed windows is condensation. This then sits on horizontal members and if windows are no looked after the junction between glass and timber will rot.

Condensation is a bigger problem than the external weather as it tends to persist, unlike the outside which will be alternately wet and dry. Water getting in behind th glass and through the corner joints is what kills em off quickest.

I'm yet to encounter a window old or new that has rotted on a scribe (although of course this could happen)

The first point of structural failure of virtually every failed window I've looked at (a lot of windows!) is the bottom rail to stile joint. This is the most important joint in terms of weathering.

.........
On Jacobs point (.......I can see that on a bottom rail to style joint, scribing the style would protect the joint and if movement happened the scribe would be more water resistant. ...

That's why it's done that way, as I said - it's the way I was taught, it makes sense. I'll continue to do it that way, and by default, any other scribed joints whether or not vulnerable to moisture.
But nobody else has to if they don't want to!

 

[J_SAMa]

This is all very interesting but Sam, are you any better informed?

Have you managed to watch the Roy Underhill video?

And weren't you also asking about the panels? There are some subtleties there to explore - the many different ways of getting a thick centre and a thin edge; how to size panels to fit the frame; how to glue and assemble. I'm not at a PC just now to check but there is probably good free detail in Cassell's Carpentry and Joinery ed Hasluck and in Ellis - both available for download.

Honestly Roy Underhill's video only discouraged me... I think he overcomplicated it by using so many different tools I don't have... And in the end, he made it with an American panel-raising plane.
Paul Seller's method is better for me (as always). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAezwdKjN2Y. He doesn't show how to get the flat edges though... The slopes are fine for box lids I guess but not for fitting in a frame though. Do you get that flat edge with a rabbet/badger plane? If so is it used before or after the slopes are created?

Also I still need to find a gouge with the bevel on the inside of the curve. Or maybe I'll stick to mitring.
Sam