Thoughts on the new Skelton Sash Saw.

[matthewwh]

Plenty of good solid two bolters out there, usually a sign that they are pre-1870's and therefore fully handmade.

I'm chuffed to bits with mine...

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I thought "Gosh, that lamb's tongue looks fragile". A few posts down and there you go:

I like the way Skelton follows Kenyon design and take it to the 21st Century

I know it looks elegant. But if it compromises its function ?

 

[matthewwh]

I've just measured it and although it looks very thin because of the shaping, Shane's is still 6.5mm at it's thinnest point and fully 10.5mm at the point where that Kenyon has gone.

In rosewood that should be more than sufficient to stand up to the rigours of normal use, obviously if someone starts lobbing them across the workshop or drops them they will sustain damage, but so would many other things too.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I thought "Gosh, that lamb's tongue looks fragile". A few posts down and there you go:

I like the way Skelton follows Kenyon design and take it to the 21st Century

I know it looks elegant. But if it compromises its function ?

I've often wondered the wisdom of PURPOSELY making something weak. :?
Edit - I should have said designing something weak. As opposed to weakening it.

 

[AndyT]

If you start your idea of what a saw handle should look like by thinking about an open handle, like you might find on a dovetail saw, completing the loop at the bottom is giving you extra strength! Even if the bit at the bottom is slender.

 

[swagman]

I thought "Gosh, that lamb's tongue looks fragile". A few posts down and there you go:

I like the way Skelton follows Kenyon design and take it to the 21st Century

I know it looks elegant. But if it compromises its function ?

I've often wondered the wisdom of PURPOSELY making something weak. :?
Edit - I should have said designing something weak. As opposed to weakening it.

http://workshopcompanion.com/KnowHow/De ... vement.htm

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I think you need to elaborate swagman - the link is about wood movement, but it isn't clear to me what the implications are here.

 

[swagman]

I think you need to elaborate swagman - the link is about wood movement, but it isn't clear to me what the implications are here.

Hi Tony. Exposure to seasonal wood movement over an extended period of time is the most likely facture that has caused the bottom rail to fracture at its weakest point. A sharp change in directional grain as seen in the shape of this handles lambs tongue are not condusive to withstand seasonal wood movement.

Stewie;

 

[Sheffield Tony]

Ah, I get you Stewie, I think. Although you might expect the whole handle to expand/contract as one, the thin short grain bit will probably respond more quickly to changing humidity so maybe cause stress. Or maybe the flex in the other parts of the handle during normal use (the bits you would have in a pistol grip) cause two much movement for that bit of short grain to take. Or maybe some twit dropped it. Anyway, if it were a bit more chunky it might have not failed, although it would have looked uglier.

I can't believe that little bit of wood makes any great contribution to the overall strength ? Is this form over function, or is there a practical reason to make the lamb's tongue so thin ?

 

[swagman]

Ah, I get you Stewie, I think. Although you might expect the whole handle to expand/contract as one, the thin short grain bit will probably respond more quickly to changing humidity so maybe cause stress. Or maybe the flex in the other parts of the handle during normal use (the bits you would have in a pistol grip) cause two much movement for that bit of short grain to take. Or maybe some twit dropped it. Anyway, if it were a bit more chunky it might have not failed, although it would have looked uglier.

I can't believe that little bit of wood makes any great contribution to the overall strength ? Is this form over function, or is there a practical reason to make the lamb's tongue so thin ?

Hi Tony. With most backsaw handles the grip length (measured 90* to the grain direction) is greater than the cheek. As such, the grip will experience a greater value of wood movement. This then impacts the directional pressure being applied to the bottom rail of the handle.

Stewie;

 

[richarnold]

This Kenyon is getting on for 250 years old As you can see its had a hard life, but the handle is still intact, and still nice and firm. Me thinks the design has stood the test of time

 

[jimi43]

I'd like to see saws that are made today knocking around in 200 years time and not causing a problem with landfill!

The tongue (the correct terminology)...is not any more fragile than the horns many of which I have seen chipped off over the years...

Careful use and appreciation of tools will ensure that they last many lifetimes....

As I understand it...Shane is dedicated to accuracy of period and reproducing this...indeed..I hear tell Richard that a certain Squire Peters may very well be making a limited appearance sometime soon? :mrgreen:

Cheeres

Jimi

 

[pedder]

Yeah, the design is proven, thought the handle on my picture was broken at the ogee curve. (the tongue is more to the front, Jim)
It is 150 y+ it is beech. And we don't know what happened, Shanes rosewood should held a lifetime or two.

Cheers Pedder

 

[pedder]

This Kenyon is getting on for 250 years old As you can see its had a hard life, but the handle is still intact, and still nice and firm. Me thinks the design has stood the test of time

Is is blasphemie when I think about refitting a new blade for the next 250 years? :roll:

 

[jimi43]

Absolutely not Pedder...when the saw has reached it's end in only the plate..the steel can be replaced to keep it going and carry the history with it on its back (literally!)

Remember this fine old lady....

Oh look...a fragile missing horn! Perhaps saws should not have horns..it's an accident waiting to happen! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :wink:

If I recall...some genius in Germany gave this Hill LATE Howell a new lease of life for another couple of centuries!

I am sure Joe Vaughn would have approved and his predecessor the LATE Mr Howel

...and I'm pretty sure that they would both have fixed the handle too! :wink:

Cheers

Jimi

 

[swagman]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_z4ZtNOMO56s/T ... +Ogee3.JPG

Focusing more on early vintage backsaws regardless of their handle shape; If heavy rust build up develops on the outer perimeter of the handle cheek (as seen on the backsaw above) will that impede the cheeks ability to move during normal seasonal wood expansion, and if thats is the case, was that the determining factor to the timing of the bottom rails fracture.

Stewie;

 

[AndyT]

I think it's safe to say that anyone who buys one of Shane's beautiful saws will not be leaving it anywhere it will be in any danger of going rusty!!

 

[swagman]

I think it's safe to say that anyone who buys one of Shane's beautiful saws will not be leaving it anywhere it will be in any danger of going rusty!!

Hi Andy. I think thats a fairly safe bet.

Stewie;

 

[Corneel]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_z4ZtNOMO56s/TLYQ5hOgQLI/AAAAAAAAB5U/ndNKvvoVWiw/s400/Kenyon+broken+Ogee3.JPG

Focusing more on early vintage backsaws regardless of their handle shape; If heavy rust build up develops on the outer perimeter of the handle cheek (as seen on the backsaw above) will that impede the cheeks ability to move during normal seasonal wood expansion, and if thats is the case, was that the determining factor to the timing of the bottom rails fracture.

Stewie;

No I don't think so. Wood movement is an incredibly strong force, while rust is a feeble substance.

 

[CONGER]

the tongue is more to the front, Jim

#-o