Thieves and burglars

[Graham Orm]

Just repaired some burglary damage for a young couple.

When it happened the wife was in bed as were the 2 kids. The husband was watching TV in the lounge and heard a crash in the kitchen. Assuming something had fallen over he went in, only to be confronted by a thug who had just smashed through the patio door. He punched him and knocked him down (he says) and was then confronted by his 2 mates one of whom had a knife.
He retreated to the hall holding the kitchen door shut and screaming at his wife to get the kids out. He was able to hold the door shut and negotiated through the door to let them have the car keys if they left, which is what they were after. He passed the keys through and they left taking the laptop from the kitchen.
Apparently The practice now is to park the car somewhere quiet and leave it for 48 hours in case it has a tracker on it, then go back to collect it if it hasn't been found. These numpty's parked it obstructing a driveway so it was found almost immediately.

The police told my client that they cruise affluent areas looking for nice cars where there are children living because they know that to protect your children, you will give them anything to get them out of the house. Long gone are the days when you left a light on when going out to keep them at bay, they want you there these days!!

 

[woodaxed]

Bring back hanging

 

[Phil Pascoe]

+1

 

[JustBen]

That's terrible.
I have a young family and it makes my blood boil thinking about it.
They have no fear, bring back the fear.

 

[themackay]

There human rights are to important to do anything meaningfull to thugs nowadays

 

[undergroundhunter]

Thats exactly why there is a baseball bat next to my side of the bed!

Matt

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I have one, turned from the heaviest piece of oak I've come across. (hammer)

 

[gregmcateer]

That's terrible.
I have a young family and it makes my blood boil thinking about it.
They have no fear, bring back the fear.

My blood, too.

Though interestingly, all research shows it's genuinely not the fear of punishment that deters, it's the fear of getting caught. Makes sense if you think about it - no baddy thinks they'll get caught, so the consequences aren't actually relevant. If they think they'll be caught, they tend to change their ways. (Not all of them, of course).

 

[Graham Orm]

With wife and daughters in the house, I'd give whatever they asked for although I do have a truncheon next to the bed. You like to think that you would 'deal' with them.....lets hope we never have to.

 

[ColeyS1]

Couple months ago couple places VERY nearby got burgled. 1000's of pounds worth of stuff got taken. After that I made the 'bam bam'

Bit of practice with the arbotech was my excuse. When I told my workmate my concern about hitting someone around the head with it and possibly killing them, he came up with a good idea of ' just go for there knees ! ' :lol: thieving scum the lot of em.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

[KevM]

I believe that the law has changed in the favour of the householder in the last few years, but I still favour a large Maglite torch - plausible deniability plus the ability to see who you're tuning up.

 

[rafezetter]

small hand spray full of something flammable and a lighter - you see them, spray and tell them what it is then light the lighter - chances of them rushing you... small.

At best you'll douse them enough to give them flash burns at most - but scare the **** out of them just the same.

no-one likes to be set on fire.

Failing that - baseball bat with nails (and something nasty and infecting on the nails) - don't care, with children in the house I'd do my best to kill at least one.

You need to be scary enough for them to go someplace else, but with more scary mofo's they meet, they might stop B&E's

 

[Graham Orm]

small hand spray full of something flammable and a lighter - you see them, spray and tell them what it is then light the lighter - chances of them rushing you... small.

At best you'll douse them enough to give them flash burns at most - but scare the **** out of them just the same.

no-one likes to be set on fire.

Failing that - baseball bat with nails (and something nasty and infecting on the nails) - don't care, with children in the house I'd do my best to kill at least one.

You need to be scary enough for them to go someplace else, but with more scary mofo's they meet, they might stop B&E's

That sounds the business. I worked for a cop a while ago, the topic came up and he said if you grab a kitchen knife make sure it isn't from the knife block but a random one so that you can say they brought it with them.

 

[Mark A]

This is an interesting discussion.

There's lots of stories circulating of people who use force to defend themselves, their family or their possessions and end up being the one prosecuted, not the burglar.

Here's a link to the CPS website regarding the use of force. Although it clears up some points, to me it's still rather vague as it doesn't say whether keeping a weapon close to hand for the purpose of self defence and using it to injure or kill an intruder would be considered premeditated, as opposed to grabbing, say, a pair of scissors from a desk drawer in the heat of the moment.

Does anyone know if that's the case?

Mark

 

[bugbear]

This is an interesting discussion.

There's lots of stories circulating of people who use force to defend themselves, their family or their possessions and end up being the one prosecuted, not the burglar.

I think there's a small number of stories that get a lot of publicity and repetition.

BugBear

 

[Graham Orm]

There was a case about a mile from us last year where the guy killed the intruder. He wasn't prosecuted but was then persecuted by family and friends of the thug who broke in. (He stabbed the intruder, I don't know who's knife he used). He's had to move away from the area now.

 

[Jonzjob]

I have a pepper spray in my bedside draw along with a heavy walking stick in the bedroom corner. The reason it's a bit heavier than normal is that there's a sword blade down the centre :mrgreen:

I also keep a pepper spray in the drivers door pocket of our car. Legal or not, I would rather use it against some thug and be done by the nick-nicks than be caught without it. In fact, I think the law is different here?

 

[sdjp]

Here's a link to the CPS website regarding the use of force. Although it clears up some points, to me it's still rather vague as it doesn't say whether keeping a weapon close to hand for the purpose of self defence and using it to injure or kill an intruder would be considered premeditated, as opposed to grabbing, say, a pair of scissors from a desk drawer in the heat of the moment.

Does anyone know if that's the case?

So, I do a bit of mediaeval/renaissance martial arts. As a consequence, there's a (blunt) sword, and a few wasters (wooden practice swords) in my house [0]. Carrying swords around makes one look up the law on these things. I'm in Scotland, where it's subtly different, so do bear that in mind but:

If you keep something with the _intent_ of using it for 'personal defence', it is that intent that is sufficient to establish premeditation if it is used to injure or kill; as best as I understand it. On the other hand, if it can be demonstrated that you have good reason to have the item(s), and they are stored in a manner commensurate with that, then even if you were to use them, then there is no evidence of premeditation. Sadly, there's a large gulf in the middle of that, where it gets unclear.

I'm afraid that it looks like if you do have a piece of sports equipment, but post online that you 'keep it handy in case of an intruder', a sharp lawyer can possibly use that to demonstrate thought related to the use of the items, thus demonstrating intent. So don't do that.


I keep my re-enactment gear in my bedroom - the clothes are hung up in the wardrobe, the shield next to it with the weapons. That's purely on the basis of keeping it all together, rather than any other purpose [1].

Given that the rules allow for 'minimal force', I'm pretty sure that if I had to use any of the various weapon-like implements, it would be very clear from the end result if I used 'minimal force' or not. With a blunted sword, given the training that I've done, I would be expected to be able deploy a fairly precise level of force, ranging from trivial bruising through to probably fatal. It would be an interesting case to see what the net result would be if a reenactment weapon was used in a home-defence scenario. To date, I don't believe that there are any test cases - the only one I am aware of, the intruder realised that he'd brought a knife to a sword fight, and the situation was resolved without actual violence.

A quick word of advice - should you find yourself in an armed situation (with, e.g. a length of wood), and it comes to blows, then strike for the intruders right (or which ever is holding a weapon) side upper arm. No matter what you expect, armed fights are _quick_, and attempting to strike for knees or legs is too slow. Aiming for the arm holding the implement is most likely to result a quick strike, with the implement being easily returned to a defensive role, and it unlikely to result in any serious injury; but in the short term has the best chance of rendering the opponent less effective.

If the opponent has a knife, you are better served with a longer stick, rather than another knife. Keeping them at a distance is far more effective at keeping yourself (and others) safe, rather than engaging in a knife fight. Knives don't allow a lot of defensive options, so you find that they tend to encourage either light slashes in the general direction, or committed stabs - and it's very difficult to block a committed stab without suffering some injury, unless one has an implement to hand [2]. Therefore, avoid getting into a knife fight, unless you have literally no other option.

The one time I've had to deal with an armed intruder, I projected him into a (wired glass) door, before I noticed he had a bloody knife. I disengaged, and he fled; which gave me time to assist with the person that had been stabbed. Fortunately, the knife had hit a rib, so it ended up being as minor as it could be, but that was a centimetre or so away from being lethal.


[0] And some shields, shield bosses, linen clothes etc… Oh, and some incomplete maille.

[1] Given the layout of my house, it's actually one of the _least_ accessible places to keep them. But then, I don't intent to use them against an intruder.

[2] Even then …

 

[rafezetter]

There was a case about a mile from us last year where the guy killed the intruder. He wasn't prosecuted but was then persecuted by family and friends of the thug who broke in. (He stabbed the intruder, I don't know who's knife he used). He's had to move away from the area now.

how did they even know where he lived? unless the burgler knew beforehand and told others where he was going. Surely the police give away names etc?

If the friends etc knew beforehand surely that's grounds for prosecution as an accomplice after the fact?

maybe in cases like this the home owner should be allowed to give evidence anonymously to the court - the same way children are allowed to do.

 

[rafezetter]

To date, I don't believe that there are any test cases - the only one I am aware of, the intruder realised that he'd brought a knife to a sword fight, and the situation was resolved without actual violence.

A quick word of advice - should you find yourself in an armed situation (with, e.g. a length of wood), and it comes to blows, then strike for the intruders right (or which ever is holding a weapon) side upper arm. No matter what you expect, armed fights are _quick_, and attempting to strike for knees or legs is too slow. Aiming for the arm holding the implement is most likely to result a quick strike, with the implement being easily returned to a defensive role, and it unlikely to result in any serious injury; but in the short term has the best chance of rendering the opponent less effective.

first one made me laugh

2nd paragraph - if you can try to hit them on the wrist on the knobbly bone with a sharp crack - being hit there hurts like hell and will numb their hand, making any strike after less effective, or even dropping the knife - but chances are after being hit they might just flee, because it REALLY hurts even with something as easy to manipulate as a broom handle.

Another possibility is a long bit of bamboo cane - hold it loosely in your offhand (not your main hand) so it slides in and out and keep jabbing at their face with it (but do it randomly and unpredicatbly) - the risk of being hit in the eyes will greatly prevent them for making a move toward you, and if they grab it - pull back so they pull back harder then let go,but be ready so when they go on the floor and you rush (if you can) and give them a bloody good kicking. Alternatively if you're not so spry grab a chair and hit them with it while they are down / getting up.

You might not hurt them much but it'll be another case of them knowing you're not an easy target.

can of aerosol something and a lighter = flame thrower

of course doing any of the above might just anger them further, but with those kind of people chances are negotiating with them for easy items prolly would not be on the cards anyway.