Tear Out when smoothing - HA Blade?

[Les Mahon]

Guys and Gals I need some advice...

Havving done most of my woodworking with machines, I had this thought about a year ago that I would like to use hand tools more, so off I set on my merry way and purchased large numbers of superb tools and waterstones and honing jigs and... you get the idea. Now one year on after a new child, a new house complete with new workshop and a mountain of paying work later it was time this weekend to take the plunge and try to use the magic tools in which I had invested so much of my hard earned cash and they work great (after I had worked out how to sharpen them properly but that is another story)

So I decided that this holly grail of a planed surface which could not be improved upon by sanding was for me and I set off on a panel of american oak with my Veritas LA Jack - the result was silky smooth in all but two loacations, where I got tear out. No problem I thought, the good people of the ukw world have covered this, hone the blade, narrow the mouth, plane from different directions, take smaller cuts - nothing worked.

So here is my question - Being an impulsive kind of person I was about to commit the credit card to a Veritas Low Angle smoother to complement the jack and jointer - after all it's called a smoother it must work, but should I be buying a smoother, or should I be buying a higher angle blade for the LA Jack?

If the answer is the Higher angle blade, could someone enlighten this normite as to which angle balde came with the plane, and which is truly the high angle blade? I am looking at the Dieter Schmitt site and the options are 25Deg, 38 Deg and 50 Deg. Is one of these likely to help me out?

Of course you can just tell me that my technique is at fault and that no amount of retail theraphy will actually get the board smooth!

Thanks
Les

 

[MooreToolsPlease]

Maybe a card scraper would be the answer, just to adress the areas of tearout?

 

[paulm]

Or put a higher angle micro-bevel on the existing blade, then remove when done ?

Worth getting a second blade though if you are going to end up doing much work.

Cheers, Paul.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Hi Les,

Have you thought of the possibility that it could just be the piece of wood? In my experience not every piece of wood can be planed without tearout - some pieces you just have to give up on If you think the wood is OK, albeit a bit difficult, rather than rush out and buy another plane something more simple (and far less expensive) like a cabinet scraper might be the way to go :wink:

Cheers

Paul

 

[woodbloke]

Agree with Paul here, some timbers just don't want to be planed so a little careful scraping all over (not just on the 'bad' spot or you will develop a hollow very rapidly) will usually clean up a rough piece of grain - Rob

 

[Philly]

Les
Some things to try first. Give the blade your best sharpening job-you'd be amazed the diference a freshly honed iron makes.
With a tight mouth, very fine blade projection (aim for shavings in the area of 1.5 thou of an inch if you have a means of measuring them) and a razor sharp blade that should remove most "tricky areas". If not then it's time for a higher angle.
I assume you have the standard bevel on your plane-for hardwoods with tough grain a higher angle makes it easy to get the flawless shining finish you want. I would try honing your iron to 40 degrees. With the bed angle (12.5 degrees) that gives you 52.5 degrees, perfect for most hardwoods.
try again-if you still have problems a higher angle again may be the last resort-I use a 50 degree bevel on my smoother (giving 62.5 degrees) That can pretty much plane any timber.
So I would recommend staying with your LA Jack plane-maybe order a second iron and hone this to the higher angle.
Do let us know how you get on,
Cheers
Philly

 

[David C]

Les,

Once a suitable effective pitch is achieved,
with a very fine shaving about 1 tho " and a sharp blade, you will be able to plane the wood without tearout.

EP is my term and it is the angle up which the shaving climbs, measured from the horizontal/woood surface.

My guess is that you might need an EP of 65 degrees. This is pure guesswork. EP of 60 degrees might work sometimes and for hard cranky exotics I use 70 or 75 degree EP.

The plane is bedded at 12 degrees, so a micro bevel of 53 degrees might do it. No need to buy an extra blade, unless you wish to.

David Charlesworth

 

[Les Mahon]

Thanks guys for the input. I'll try honing the blade to a higher angle and see how we get on.

Altenativly I'll go for the card scaper - didn't think of doing that :roll:

I'll let you know what happens.

Regards
Les

 

[Colin C]

Hi Les

Every workshop should have a card scraper :wink:
You will wonder why you did not get one before

 

[George_N]

EP is my term and it is the angle up which the shaving climbs, measured from the horizontal/woood surface.



David Charlesworth

What does EP actually stand for? Effective planing angle?

 

[Frank D.]

Effective pitch I believe.
I tried a 70° EP last evening on some bubinga. It worked OK but the plane was EXTREMELY hard to push. I switched over to my usual plane for difficult woods, a scraper plane (112) and couldn't belive how much easier it was to push. I had a lot more control over what I was doing.

 

[David C]

Frank.

Interesting.

How wide was your shaving and how thick?

Steep EPs are harder to push, but with fine shaving I have not had too much trouble. Planing progress is however very slow as one can only remove about 1 thou" at a pass!

best wishes,
David Charlesworth

 

[Paul Chapman]

Once a suitable effective pitch is achieved,
with a very fine shaving about 1 tho " and a sharp blade, you will be able to plane the wood without tearout.

Hi David,

Interesting stuff :wink: In your book "Furniture-Making Techniques, Volume Two" you suggest that you really need to have double bevel bladed planes and cabinet scrapers at your disposal to deal with tearout, depending on the particular type of wood involved. Do you now feel that it can all be done with a plane or does the cabinet scraper still have its place? I would have thought it did :wink:

Cheers

Paul

 

[Frank D.]

Frank.

Interesting.

How wide was your shaving and how thick?

I just measured some shavings that I hadn't thrown away...it seems like my plane shavings were around 1.5 to 2 thou, a little thicker than I thought, so maybe that explains the difficulty I had pushing the plane (they were full width, 2 1/4"). The scraper plane shavings were almost full width (around 2 1/2") and around 1 thou thick, or just a little less.
I'll be smoothing out the bubinga again so I'll give the plane another go with thinner shavings, although I am more used to using the scraper plane for highly figured woods.

 

[David C]

Paul,

Time has passed and I think my opinion has changed a little.

I find it quicker and easier to set up and sharpen a double bevel plane blade, or BU, than to prepare scraper plane.

Therefore I would prefer to plane than to scrape.

I now think that the only absolute necessity for the large scraper plane is on large veneered surfaces, where planing is too risky. If a blister is encountered, a patch ov veneer is likely to be torn away.

OOPS The large scraper plane is also very good on soft complex timber. It has more of a sharp cutting action than double bevel, which works best on the harder species, the harder the better. and not at all on soft woods.

Both tools will do a splendid job on cranky solid timber, the plane may be harder to push than the scraper plane, but with very fine shavings and a very small camber the effort is not too bad.

My planes have very low friction due to the use of wire wool and metal polish.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth

 

[MikeW]

...
OOPS The large scraper plane is also very good on soft complex timber. It has more of a sharp cutting action than double bevel, which works best on the harder species, the harder the better. and not at all on soft woods.
...

Yep, a scraper plane, in part due to the ability to adjust the effective pitch to meet the requirements of the wood, is great on something like Camphor Burl, and even thin straight-grained Spruce. At least with a fine shaving.

But even at that, if I had just two or three small areas of tear-out and I was getting very close to thickness, I would probably just use a card scraper than risk tear out below my needed finished surface.

If I were to try, I would attempt to avoid those couple areas until they were all that was left, sharpen the blade and do them. In fact, on the surface of a piece I am working on that is 24" deep by 78" long, I honed probably 3 times during the final finish planing. And I didn't have risk of tear out--nice Mahogany.

Take care, Mike

 

[philip marcou]

Les,
By all means do not deprive youself of any reason to get another nice plane or better, but in the mean time I think it is essential that you get at least two card scrapers, learn a method of preparing them and see just how good they are- you will wander how on earth you did without them.
If you look at my web site www.marcouplanes.com you will confirm that I have to feel strongly about the use of scrapers, or I would have been urging you to an alternative solution (,)

 

[matthewwh]

Hi Les,

You mentioned that you were working in Oak. I have found consistantly that Oak (and Beech for that matter) respond better to LOWER effective pitches. The LA Jack on Oak should take almost as good a shaving against the grain as with it and plane straight over knots without tearing out so you must have a pretty unruly piece of timber there!

Your LA Jack will have been supplied with a 25 degree blade bedded at 12 degrees, which is already low, but if you skew the plane to the work it is possible to go lower. In Normite terms it's the same principle as putting a board through the thicknesser at a slight angle to improve the finish.

This shaving was taken with an LN 102 (same blade geometry as your LA Jack), on oak, at a slight skew of about 10 degrees, with no tearout. The arrows indicate the grain direction.

Just a thought for something you can try before you put your hand in your pocket.

Cheers,

Matthew