Startrite Tilt Arbour Fence

[kevinh]

I recently got my hands on one of these lovely old table saws, in pretty good condition except for two main problems. The blade wobbles slightly giving a very poor finish on long rips and the fence doesn't operate very well.

When you turn the wheel to move the fence the far end kind of drags behind a bit, which knocks the fence out of square. I have it set up so that as I move the fence closer to the blade it's parallel but if I have to back off a few mil the fence is dangerously angled towards the blade.

I have the manual and have removed it several times to see if there's some adjustment that will sort this out but I can't find anything that works... (hammer)

Anyone here have any suggestions?

Thanks

 

[marcros]

is it backlash in the mechanism- to be accurate, do you have to move the blade too bar from the blade and then move it back in to position?

 

[Ttrees]

Hello Kevin
The first thing to do is to give the flanges a very quick touch on a lapping plate for about 10 seconds
and knock any crud off the blade also.
These flanges are only meant to be touching on the outside, so as you tighten the arbor nut, they flatten out.
I was surprised how much this made a difference, I was worrying that my arbor was bent or possibly the blade was damaged by the wobble.
Infact so bad that I could not get it setup to the fence.
I ended up shimming the fence rail blocks so there is a skoche more clearance towards the back of the blade.

Does the fence stay put on everyone's machine, or does it loosen after some time?

Tom

 

[kevinh]

Good thinking about the flanges actually. I'll try that when I'm back after lunch.

The blade very noticably wobbles when it's speeding up and slowing down but at full pace it looks fine. So I don't know if this is cos it's just spinning so fast that I just can't see any deviation or if it's just some sort of harmonic resonance that happens when it's accelerating and deccelerating. If I take a shallow cut and measure the width of the 'bite' from the saw it is wider than the kerf of the blade which would indicate that it is still wobbling at full speed.

With regards the fence, when you turn the wheel it responds straight away but only at the front end casting, the rear end stays put. So it's like the fence is pivoting around the rear end. You can move the fence about 2mm at the pinion before the back end stops pivoting and starts moving. So it's not backlash in the rack and pinion, more like there's play in the channel of the front casting that rides on the fence bar. But there's no gibs or anything to take out the slack that I can see...

 

[deema]

The fence should be clear of the table and resting only on the two bars. If the saw has been well used the a lot it may be dished towards the saw blade from wear. I'd check that any false fence that's been added isn't dragging on the table. It should be just slightly clear.

It doesn't need gribs, the idea is that when you apply the lock it pulls the fence totally square. The hook over the far bar pulls the fence square to the bar with the gauge on it. If the fence isn't tight the nut at the far end needs tightening. There should be absolutely no movement when locked.

If the flange check doesn't verify a problem, take off the belts and check that the bearings aren't worn. With the belts off grab hold of the saw blade and wiggle to see if there is any movement. If there is, the bearings are really easy to replace. You can't check it with the belts on.

 

[deema]

Should have said, a lot of 'cheap' Saw blades don't have flat plates and wobble. I would suggest you check the blade first.

 

[kevinh]

Many thanks Ttrees, I lapped the flanges yesterday and it actually made a significant difference. Still wobbling but hugely reduced.

I've been meaning to remove the belts and possibly replace them but so far as I can see it would involve removing the motor. This was a 3 phase machine at one stage but someone replaced the motor with a single phase one and it looks like they changed the mount as well. It won't be impossible, just a bit of a nuisance, especially when I'm the only one in the workshop. Is it possible to remove the spindle to bring it to a machinery workshop to change out the bearings or will they have to be changed in-situ?

And you're right Deema, the fence body is dragging on the table (and getting stuck on the mitre slots). I'll have a look at what I can do about that shortly. Thanks for explaining the workings, that makes sense now.

The blade is an Axcaliber Premium, I was slow to invest in anything more expensive as I wasn't sure about the saw to begin with. It behaves pretty much the same way as the original blades that came with the saw. They have no branding so not sure if they're expensive or not. I bought the saw from a nice old man that was sadly starting to dote and his daughter was helping him sell off his old tools. He was getting his blades resharpened by a local company in Dublin for years it seems.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Ttrees]

Hello Kevin
I can remove the "worn" belts on my machine without unbolting the motor.
That's not a nice job to do by yourself, if you want to know.
Here is the original mounting plate that holds the motor, I doubt anyone would have to alter it much
to mount a new motor on.
(Heavy trunnion assembly removed for custom mobile base project)
Interested to see what blade supplier you choose
Tom

 

[deema]

Changing the bearings is something I tend to do with all the machines I buy (they are all second-hand) bearings are very cheap (make sure you get a decent brand such as SKF or *** etc) and if they are worn they can do a lot of damage that costs a lot of time and effort to put right.

To change the bearings is very easy on the Startrite machine. [from memory it's a few years since I owned one of these wonderful saws] Remove the top, 4 bolts and two roll pins that hold it on and lift it off. Remove the motor, 4 bolts hold this on. Remove the tilt handle and stop. The stop has numerous holes for the grub screw to allow you to set 90 degrees precisely. It's probably not set correctly at the moment. It's a bit of fiddling around to find the right hole combination. Unbolt the assembly for the rise fall which actually is what holds the whole Saw assembly to the cabinet.

There is are a couple of grub screws, one on top of the other holding the spindle pulley on. Penetration Oil over night. Now gently warm up the pulley with a blow torch whilst turning the spindle. You want to get it hot, but not enough to melt the aluminium. Let it cool. You will need a bearing puller to get the pulley off, gently does it (any cheap one off an action site will do. I have a cheap Draper that cost I think less than £5). The penetrating oil and warming it up should enable it to come off very easily. If you have to pull execessively, repeat the penetrating oil / heat.

Once the pulley is off, tap, tap the spindle out with a copper faced hammer, or better still rig up two clamps and a piece of wood to press it out. Pull off the bearings. And your done.

Freeze the bearings in a plastic bag over night. (I also put the spindle in the freezer over night wrapped in a plastic bag). Gently warm up the casting they sit in with a heater / blow torch / hit air gun) The new bearings will now slide into place. And once they have warmed up after a few hours the spindle will also now slide into place.

I like to strip down the machines, and put them back together so I know everything works properly, is setup correctly and works as it should. Most machines have something that is stuck, not aligned properly or never been greased / oiled. I take the motors apart and renew the bearings in them as well. I always find it amazing how much quieter a machine runs after I've reworked it.

 

[deema]

If the fence is catching, it's just case of removing the false wooden fence - two screws - a few swipes with a plane to shorten it, and I'd also add a small chamfer on the bottom and your good.

 

[memzey]

I agree to a certain extent with all of the above however I would say that a bit of drag from the rear rail is an inevitability of this design. The best solution I came up with (once I'd ensured that the false fence wasn't dragging) was to align the fence to be square if moved to position from right to left i.e. making the rip narrower. If I overshoot I'll back right off and creep up to my mark again, right to left. Once you are used to this it becomes second nature and something you do without thinking. I've aligned mine to toe out about 1/64" front to back as it apparently helps prevent kickback but I can't really say if that works or not. No appreciable loss of accuracy though as 1/64" spread over 3' odd is less than negligible for the oafish woodworking I do, so I've kept it like that (no kickbacks either).

 

[Ttrees]

Has anyone noticed, there is a bit of misalignment with the blade when the arbor is tilted at 45 ?
I don't think there is "adjustment" for this.
I have heard that kickback can happen easier with the blade tilted, so this could be problematic.

Tom

 

[memzey]

I haven't experienced that but I have a different machine. Sorry - should have been clearer, my saw is an old Wadkin but has the same style of fence which was what I was commenting on above. I agree that such a misalignment when the spindle is canted is probably dangerous.

 

[deema]

I don't fully understand what sort of misalignment your getting, could you elaborate?

The tilting on the Saw is rather unique in that the blade tilts away from the fence rather than as is normal towards it. This means that it's highly unlikely that the stuff will get trapped and kick back. I believe it's a far safer direction for the blade to tilt. It also means that if you have the sliding table it can cut window tenans easily. (Where a cheek needs to be cut at say 8 degrees fit the cill fir example)

 

[kevinh]

Thanks lads, you've been a great help. The saw is in considerably better condition now than it was if still not quite 100% there.

I managed to lift the fence body off the table so now it just runs on the bars. There's still a bit of 'lag' in the movement but I think I can get around this using memzey's technique.

Also, with regards the false sacrificial fence, how long should that be? I've read only as far as the bottom of the furthest gullet at table height but this changes when you raise and lower the blade. And it seems just a bit too short if it's only as far as the centre of the blade. Any suggestions?

Thanks for the instructions on removing the bearings Deema. I'll have a go at taking off the belt first today and seeing if there's significant play.

For removing the belt is it a case of just brute force and ignorance and forcing the belt off the pulley or is there a bit of a technique to it? They're on pretty darn tight. I'll give it another go.

Thanks again

 

[deema]

The false fence for ripping should only extend as far as the gullets of the blade as you've stated.

Here an assembly diagram of the motor mounting and the spindle arrangement.

https://www.machinespares.net/products/ ... -platform/

The motor is connected to a platform that has bolts holding it to the main body. By slackening the bolts of the platform the motor and platform can be pushed up to enable the belts to come off easily.

The spindle assembly looks complex, but it isn't. I forgot that there is a bolt to remove from the back of the pulley. After pushing / tapping out the spindle the circlips need to be removed to get the bearings out. Cheap circlip players are needed. Again a few pounds for a cheap pair is all that's required.

Machine spares make genuine parts for the saws, they bought the drawings when the original Startrite company gave up. I would take the spindle apart and then check what the bearings are and find quality bearings at probably a much lower price. The bearing number will be engraved on the bearings. From memory they are both the same. I'd expect to buy 3 bearings for about £12 ~ £15delivered. I would by SKF or ***. I normally use this company for bearings and belts. I found that they infer great service and and very helpful. I'd buy three just in case you have an accident when fitting one of them. If you've not done it before it's a prudent move.

http://www.bearingsrus.co.uk

Again select good quality belts and inky ever replace them in pairs, never just one at a time. They need to be new together and good quality so that they are exactly the same length / size and will each take the load. If you just replace one belt / poo quality belts you can end up with only one belt driving and causing the bearings to wear out prematurely.

I'd typically buy Gates belts.

 

[mickthetree]

My tuppence worth on this... My blade also had a very slight wobble. Most noticeable when slowing down. The rear bearing (the one closest to the edge of the table) had worn and even slightly worn the shaft. It was greatly reduced when running at full speed, but I noticed a very slight pulsing. A new bearing sorted the problem, but I did use some draper bearing compound which allowed everything to sit centrally. It has worked flawlessly since and they are superb saws.

I faffed for ages trying to get the blade to align with the table top slots, then I read somewhere that if you secure down the table top (and remove the split pins that connect to the front mechanism) then you can move the entire arbour mechanism with great precision. Once done, tighten the bolts that connect the table top to the front mechanism.

Hope this helps

 

[kevinh]

Thanks again lads.

Big load of work has just come in so the table saw surgery will be put on hiatus for a month or so. There's a good bearings company close to me here so when I get round to it I'll probably bring the spindle down to them and have it done properly.

Mickthetrees, do you mean so that you keep the table bolted to the outer frame of the saw and adjust the mechanism inside the saw instead? I also spent ages messing with the table top, removed the pins, even enlarged the bolt holes for more play and after all that was still never really happy with the alignment. This, the blade wobble and the slop in the fence left me rueing the day I bought the saw...

 

[mickthetree]

Hi Kevin.

Sounds like you've got it. bolt the top to the cabinet but leave the four bolts off where the tilt mechanism joins the top. Line it all up then tighten those up. I was a bit miffed too until I got it running sweet. now its a dream.

Did you get the sliding table and extending bars with it too?

I got the extra long cross cut fence, feather board bit (which screws into the fence) and some out rigger legs which I've never used. With some home made cross cut sleds too I have found my dream saw

 

[kevinh]

Yup, came with the sliding table and extra long fence bars. Sliding table doesn't slide very smoothly unfortunately though. Main reason why I haven't sold it on again already is it just feels like quality and it really hums when it's spinning. Hopefully I can get it to cut well again!