Startrite 275 Table saw blade alignment

[tren]

Hi All,

As mentioned before I picked a second hand startrite 275 off ebay recently and I need help aligning the blade to the table.

At the moment the blade is misaligned by ~1mm (blade is 1mm closer to the left rail than the back of the blade).

This is what I have done so far:

1. I have removed the table from the cabinet and checked that there is no play in the shoes 37,38 on the diagram attached.
2. One of the shoe had a bit of play (most likely worn a little) so I twisted it into the grove to tighten it and it reduced the misalignment by 0.5mm.
3. I checked the table before putting it back and noticed that I only have 1 securing/alignment dowel left (the right one, number 41 on the diagram). The left dowel one is snapped.
4. I put the table back on and spent a considering amount of time to align it with the blade but whenever I tighten the 4 bolts it just keeps going off centre.

Is there anywhere else I should check that could cause the misalignment?

The solutions I am thinking of:

1. Source new 37,38 and perhaps 39 part to remove any potential play.
2. Put a shim/spacer between the 37/38 and 36.
3. Enlarge the holes in the Apron to give me a little bit more room for the bolts (39) when tightening the table to the apron

 

[deema]

It’s very difficult without pictures to appreciate what the cause of the problem is. However, try removing the name plate on the front above the rise / fall handle. Behind it there is a hole that allows access to 51:52. This screw allows for some adjustment, and may have been fiddled with at some stage in the saws life.

Replace the rolled spring that’s missing out of the table. These were drilled when the saw was setup in the factory. With everything bolted down it’s then a case of finding the source of the issue.

Is the blade parallel with the slots? Ie it’s just not aligned with the fence?

 

[tren]

It’s very difficult without pictures to appreciate what the cause of the problem is. However, try removing the name plate on the front above the rise / fall handle. Behind it there is a hole that allows access to 51:52. This screw allows for some adjustment, and may have been fiddled with at some stage in the saws life.

Replace the rolled spring that’s missing out of the table. These were drilled when the saw was setup in the factory. With everything bolted down it’s then a case of finding the source of the issue.

Is the blade parallel with the slots? Ie it’s just not aligned with the fence?

Thanks deema.

I have attached some pictures not sure if it helps. If you want to see anything more specific please let me know.

The blade is not parallel to the table slots (misaligned by 1mm). I haven't had a chance to look at the fence yet.

As far as I can tell everything seems as tight as it should. The only thing I noticed is that 36 has had a repair/welding done to it. Not sure if that could have had an effect on alignment.

I managed to push the broken pins down so it's enough to get into the hole and secure the table to its factory setup spot but it's still misaligned, I have tried to remove them completely and bolted everything and it also gives me the same results.

I haven't tried to adjust 51,52 as you suggested yet so I will do that now.

I did try to put a 1mm shim/washer between the 37/38 and 36 but it twisted it too much and because misaligned in the opposite direction. So if I was going that direction I would need a slimmer shim/washer most likely 0.5mm or so.

 

[tren]

Behind it there is a hole that allows access to 51:52. This screw allows for some adjustment, and may have been fiddled with at some stage in the saws life.

Also, could you please explain to me how 51:52 would affect the blade alignment to the table? Am struggling to understand.

 

[deema]

51/52 is the adjustment mechanism to tighten up the attachment of the saw to the quadrant. It allows all slop due to wear of the two ‘fingers’ that hook into the quadrant to be pulled down into the groove. It’s an eccentric bolt. It will eliminate the quadrant as a cause of your misalignment. I mentioned it, as you had tried to adjust the slop by rotating the fingers.

 

[deema]

If 36 has been welded, which I can see it had, then yes, this is almost certainly the cause of the problem. The whole saw system hangs of this bit, it only needs a tiny smidge of change to throw the whole saw out of alignment.
I would take the part out and have a good look at what has been done / the surface of the face that the finger attaches to. A straight edge laid across both fingers mounts should show a consistent flat machined surface.

 

[deema]

I would like to suggest you replace your post code with a general location, such as London.

 

[tren]

If 36 has been welded, which I can see it had, then yes, this is almost certainly the cause of the problem. The whole saw system hangs of this bit, it only needs a tiny smidge of change to throw the whole saw out of alignment.
I would take the part out and have a good look at what has been done / the surface of the face that the finger attaches to. A straight edge laid across both fingers mounts should show a consistent flat machined surface.

Thanks I will just do that and take a look at it tomorrow. Wondering if I could find a replacement part for 36. Would Altsawaandspares stock something like this? I will pop them an email.

Thanks

 

[tren]

Spare part is approx ~£400 so I have been making adjustment with a combination of filing and extra thin 0.1mm shims between the fingers and 36. I am very close now but am waiting for a gaging tool for a more accurate alignment.

A few questions for you as I have been struggling a few other things:

1. What is the best way to remove and replace one of the top fingers? Not sure what I have been doing is the best way...
2. the 2 top fingers are well into the quadrant groove now but am struggling to see how 51/52 would adjust it. I can't really turn the screw more than a quarter of a circle either way with the nut loose on the other side - am guessing it's due to the weight of the tilt arm and motor hanging on it. Could you please explain how you would go about adjusting it?
3. Once I have the 4 bolts of the bolted on the table, 2 of the bolts for the cabinet are misaligned with the holes in the table (the 2 on the left of the apron). I have tried to twisted the table etc but I just can't seem to align the cabinet and table hole together. Any suggestions? I was thinking of perhaps losing the size nuts of the apron that are used to attached to the cabinet to give me a bit more room but not sure if this will help much.

My next step is to look at the rip fence which don't seem to lock parallel to the slots..

Thanks!

 

[deema]

Wow, didn’t think you could buy that part, the table will probably need re-aligning and a couple of new location pin holes drilling. It was drilled and pinned when made to ensure it was accurately aligned. You normally can’t swap parts and expect the original ‘calibration’ to be consistent with the new parts.
Anyway, bolt 51/52 is a cam, so you won’t be able to rotate it much. You rotate it whilst trying to tilt the blade, too much and the tilt will stiffen up so you can’t move it, you want that happy medium or Goldilocks, not too tight to cause exacerbated wear and not too loose that there is play.

If you support the saw mechanism and with 51/52 in a loose position with the table top off, if memory serves you can just unbolt one of them. May I ask why you want to remove them?

3. I think you’re taking about the 4 bolts that hold the table top down to the carcass. Some of these saws can be horrendous to get realigned after taking them apart to get the 4 bolts to realign. Usually because the carcass has suffered a bit of abuse over the years and once the bolts are released pings out of shape. All I can say, is that with a lot of swearing, and effort I’ve hit them all back on without the need to do any surgery. I usually turn the saw upside down when this occurs to not only see what I’m doing but it helps to lever the carcass back into position.

The Rip fence was set to tilt slightly away from the fence, that’s how all the traditional saws were setup for safety. The very last thing you want is the fence toeing in, then you get the wood trapped against the blade which it will eject at a rapid rate! Thats why you always, and I mean always stand so if anything kicks back it doesn’t go right through you. I had a such an incident and it through a length of 100x75 that was 3 meters long, 5 meters back and dented my shed. If I’d been in the way, I’d have been skewered.

The rip fence can be adjusted. It’s very very fiddly. You slacken the three large bolts on top of the fence, move the fence to where you want it and retighten, check and repeat until you get it where you want. You must check after moving the fence away from the blade, and after applying the clamp. By the way check both back and front clamps are working and adjusted properly before starting to adjust the fence. Most people arnt aware the fence clamps on both rails when setup properly.

 

[tren]

Wow, didn’t think you could buy that part, the table will probably need re-aligning and a couple of new location pin holes drilling. It was drilled and pinned when made to ensure it was accurately aligned. You normally can’t swap parts and expect the original ‘calibration’ to be consistent with the new parts.

Yes I was also surprised that the part is available, but it's worth half the cost of my table so definitely not buying it especially if it means having to do the same readjustment that I have to do now. Just wondering how new pin holes could be drilled when there are existing ones already? Also the 4 bolts don't seem to have much play in them either. Would you fill/weld the existing pin holes and drill new ones? What about the bolts, would you enlarge the holes in the apron?

Anyway, bolt 51/52 is a cam, so you won’t be able to rotate it much. You rotate it whilst trying to tilt the blade, too much and the tilt will stiffen up so you can’t move it, you want that happy medium or Goldilocks, not too tight to cause exacerbated wear and not too loose that there is play.

OK thanks I will give it a go and see how it feels. At the moment it feels alright to me but I have nothing to compare it to and it seems that I might need to make it looser to take fingers off.

If you support the saw mechanism and with 51/52 in a loose position with the table top off, if memory serves you can just unbolt one of them. May I ask why you want to remove them?

That's more or less what I have been doing but it was all very tight, probably because 51/52 is not lose.
I am only removing the right finger to be able to put shims/washers between it and the tilting arm, so I can adjust the blade alignment this way and not mess with pin holes, bolts etc. if that makes sense?

3. I think you’re taking about the 4 bolts that hold the table top down to the carcass. Some of these saws can be horrendous to get realigned after taking them apart to get the 4 bolts to realign. Usually because the carcass has suffered a bit of abuse over the years and once the bolts are released pings out of shape. All I can say, is that with a lot of swearing, and effort I’ve hit them all back on without the need to do any surgery. I usually turn the saw upside down when this occurs to not only see what I’m doing but it helps to lever the carcass back into position.

Yes indeed I am referring to the bolts that hold the table to the carcass. Good tip on turning the saw up side down, i will give this a go once my blade is perfectly aligned.

With regards to the rip fence, I am aware of its needs to be slightly toed out (although seems that there are 2 schools ie. perfectly aligned or slightly toed out..?). I am a not familiar with its mechanism just yet, so once I have the blade aligned I will look into it and revert back if needed. When you mentioend the 3 bolts on top of the rip fence which ones do you mean on the drawing below?

https://www.machinespares.net/produ...-saws/startrite-ta-175275/rip-fence-assembly/

Thanks for your help! it is very much appreciated. I can see how great and solid the startrite is (I bought it after recommendation from here), fairly simple to understand its mechanism but it's a real pain to adjust with very little infos on them apart from a few knowledgeable person like you on here!

 

[deema]

Drilling new rolled pin holes is straight forward. You align the table and blade, tighten down the bolts and then drill new ones in a different location. I’d leave the original holes without trying to fill them. You can use epoxy filler or JB weld to fill them, or indeed regular soft solder (with a bung of some sort to stop it dripping through to the floor as you melt it in)

I’m assuming you don’t have access to a decent mill, so my first approach would be to take off completely the welded plate and look at the contact surfaces that bolt to the fingers. Using a 12” metal ruler or something as a straight edge and a file using the unwelded side as a reference surface try with a file to get the other as flat and true as possible to it. Rebuild and using say a beer can as shim stock, or a cheap set of feeler gauges work out how much of a shim you need. I’d then buy the appropriate sizes of shim washers and use those instead as a permanent solution. It probably won’t be nuts on, and need a slight tweak in the table and redrill the alignment pin holes.

Here is a source of shim washers
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/25607122...lp:4429486&itmmeta=01HS2BPFH3YCTV1NNHA0YFZJ7Q

To adjust the fence it’s bolts 113. I would not recommend setting it parallel, if it’s a smidge toed in it gets exciting! I know our cousins over the pond and a lot of uTube stuff goes on about setting it parallel, but, blades are often not absolutely flat, and can over time distort even if they start out flat. Thats the reason they always recommend you select a single tooth to set up the fence against. So, if you set it parallel, you will get scenarios where it’s actually toed in. So here’s an exert out of the Wadkin AGS10 manual, the table is very close to the same size as the Startrite, so I’d set it up using these guidelines. The Startrite screws to loosen are the same.

 

[tren]

So using a combination of shims and filing, I manage to get my blade aligned by 0.03mm, blade toeing out by 0.03mm. Is this acceptable? I am reading online that most are happy with that. I managed to do all that using the existing pin holes as well.

I also managed to put 3 of the table+carcass bolts back in. I can't seem to be able to put the top left one in unfortunately. I can barely get the bolt in the thread but it's at an angle so it just does not grab enough of it. And no amount of pressure seems to make it aligned to the table. I can see that the hole is very near the edge of the carcass leap (1mm away from the edge). It either had some surgery done to it before it they had to drill it like that from factory...Not sure what to do at this stage apart from perhaps enlarging the hole by a mm or so.

To adjust the fence it’s bolts 113. I would not recommend setting it parallel, if it’s a smidge toed in it gets exciting! I know our cousins over the pond and a lot of uTube stuff goes on about setting it parallel, but, blades are often not absolutely flat, and can over time distort even if they start out flat. Thats the reason they always recommend you select a single tooth to set up the fence against. So, if you set it parallel, you will get scenarios where it’s actually toed in. So here’s an exert out of the Wadkin AGS10 manual, the table is very close to the same size as the Startrite, so I’d set it up using these guidelines. The Startrite screws to loosen are the same.

I still haven't had a chance to look at the fence alignment but one thing I have found is that there is a play in it when using the knob to move it left to right. If I turn the knob to slide it left to right, only the bottom of the fence moves for approx the first quarter of a turn. I have attached a video. Is that normal? If so does the fence always need to be adjusted from one direction (left to right or right to left?). As you can see the

One last question for today:

I need to build myself a cross cut sled. I understand that the mitre slot of the startrite table are non standard size. Where can I get some spare ones for my sled? I have seen on youtube that some use bits of hardwood but I am not sure if this is ideal?

 

[Distinterior]

I've been reading your thread with interest @tren and I'm sorry to read about the issues you're having with the saw.
Deema has offered some good advice

But, after watching the short video you posted, along with the other issues you've got,......did you really pay £800 for this saw..?
That front fence mounting is clearly smashed on the right corner...!! It's not likely to work correctly with that section missing....
Also, that Black knob you are turning should also pull/ push in & out to engage & disengage the spline on the underside of the front rail....

 

[tren]

I've been reading your thread with interest @tren and I'm sorry to read about the issues you're having with the saw.
Deema has offered some good advice

But, after watching the short video you posted, along with the other issues you've got,......did you really pay £800 for this saw..?
That front fence mounting is clearly smashed on the right corner...!! It's not likely to work correctly with that section missing....
Also, that Black knob you are turning should also pull/ push in & out to engage & disengage the spline on the underside of the front rail....

I paid a bit less than that, I paid £625 for the saw but had to pay extra for pallet delivery. I bought it from ebay from someone who (supposedly) specialised in refurbishing/servicing:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/workshop-31

No need to say that I have been less than impressed. I clearly got a little bit ripped off. Lots of things were not disclosed during the sell (plenty of missing bits and weldedparts) and for some reason I was sent a broken rip fence while the picture shows an intact one. it’s not like I can resend it, unfortunately I was too busy at the time of the delivery 2 month ago so now it’s a little bit late.

I did send him an email but obv had no response, not a genuine seller that’s for sure

 

[deema]

Well done, great job. Getting to 30 micron or a tag over a thou, is good enough. You probably won’t find a blade that flat anyway to notice any difference…..the vast majority of DIY or trade blades have a wobble when spun.

The fence shouldn’t move like your video, there is always some play when they move but your is exacerbated by the damage. All IMO isn’t lost! The clamp at the handle end where the damage is pushing the bar outwards and down when clamped, so it would appear that’s into an undamaged area. The test I always perform is to remove the other end (hook) from the bar and make sure the knob end locks hard on the bar. When I say hard I mean you can’t push or pull it along the bar. There is adjustment if it doesn’t. You then pop the hook end back on the bar and adjust the champ on that end so you can’t push or pull it. You will find when properly adjusted the fence repeatedly locks true on the bar. That said, it’s good practice to only adjust the fence moving it towards the blade. This makes the hook end ‘drag’ away from the blade which is the safest if it doesn’t clamp properly. If the knob end won’t clamp properly to thd vat due to the damage DO NOT use the fence, it’s dangerous.

Why do you want a sled? You have one if the best sliding tables with the original clamps?

Anyway to make guides get yourself a bit of aluminium bar and then a few ball bearing tipped set screws (grub screws) drill and tap the aluminium to allow you to screw the ball end if the set screw through the bar. You can now adjust the the bar to the exact width of your slot with virtually no play.

 

[tren]

The clamp at the handle end where the damage is pushing the bar outwards and down when clamped, so it would appear that’s into an undamaged area.

I still need to take a proper look but at first glance I agree it does not seem that the damaged area a huge impact on the 'play'. I'm hoping to be able to take a proper look at the fence some time today or next week. I will revert back once I get there.

Btw, you can get a new front end casting for the rip fence BUT...it's £270!

Why do you want a sled? You have one if the best sliding tables with the original clamps?

I don't have the sliding table. I thought the 275 had 2 versions? one with the sliding table/arm on the left and one without, am I wrong? Mine has nothing on the left, just the table. I do have a pair of extending bars/arms and an extending table though.

Anyway to make guides get yourself a bit of aluminium bar and then a few ball bearing tipped set screws (grub screws) drill and tap the aluminium to allow you to screw the ball end if the set screw through the bar. You can now adjust the the bar to the exact width of your slot with virtually no play.

Great suggestion! My gaging tool is exactly like that so I know exactly what you mean.

 

[tren]

The test I always perform is to remove the other end (hook) from the bar and make sure the knob end locks hard on the bar. When I say hard I mean you can’t push or pull it along the bar. There is adjustment if it doesn’t. You then pop the hook end back on the bar and adjust the champ on that end so you can’t push or pull it.

I have just done this test and unfortunately the knob end is 'loose' on the bar, when the hook is off the bar on the other side. I have been trying to see how I can adjust but it's not clear at all to me? If you could point me towards the right direction using the chart below would be awesome.

https://www.machinespares.net/produ...-saws/startrite-ta-175275/rip-fence-assembly/

I am also struggling to see how the 4 bolts on the top of the ripping fence can have any affect on the rip fence alignment. I have tried to make sense of it but without success.

On closer inspection it also seems to me that damaged front end has been welded in the past so god knows how it has been put back together....unfortunately it is more and more apparent that I got rather 'ripped off' on this purchase, but I now don't really have any other option to make it work some how.

 

[deema]

Loosening the bolts allows the hook and knob end casting to move a little, this allows the fence angle to be adjusted by a small amount. There is not a lot of wiggle, but it’s the way the are alignment is achieved.

Now, I may I have given you some duff info. It’s been a while since I refurbished a Startrite, and I sometimes mix up what to do with the Wadkin AGS saws when it comes to memory and both saws in lots of ways are very similar. I have a Startrite waiting to be refurbished when I get my workshop up and running again and will do a thread on exactly how to tear them apart and rebuild them. Anyway, looking at the schematic it doesn’t show an adjusted in the cast knob end, which the AGS has. So, can you send me a picture of the underside of the cast end of the fence where the bar goes just to ensure I don’t steer you wrong. Im thinking that it’s a floating locking system, ie there is just one adjuster which is at the hook end. If you have 5 mins try the fence locked with the hook attached and give both ends a good shove to see if they move.

The eBay listing is for the DS275 that yoi showed that does have the sliding table?

Look out for a really knackered old Startrite 175 / 275 and use it as a doner saw. Sell off the bits you don’t need as spares after a bit of clean up and usually you get your money back / small profit.

 

[tren]

Loosening the bolts allows the hook and knob end casting to move a little, this allows the fence angle to be adjusted by a small amount. There is not a lot of wiggle, but it’s the way the are alignment is achieved.

That's what I guess but was just checking as as you said it really does not give much leeway. As long as it is enough.

I have a Startrite waiting to be refurbished when I get my workshop up and running again and will do a thread on exactly how to tear them apart and rebuild them.

That would be amazing! I am learning a lot as we go and this forum has already a few questions answered but overall still difficult to have some answers. Like everything though, once you spent the few hours on it and get a couple of answers, they are incredibly simply made/put together.

The eBay listing is for the DS275 that you showed that does have the sliding table?

Oh I see, no it's just the seller page and what he has for sale at the moment. Mine is a base 275 (with a lot of missing and broken parts!).

Now, I may I have given you some duff info.

That makes sense now! As I couldn't really understand what you meant and how it would help when trying it

I have attached videos of the rip fence from underneath and in action (hopefully that helps, if not let me know what else you want to see). I think you are right, as far as I can tell the only adjustment is the screw at the hook end. I have tighten it and when locked nothing moves, however I still have the crazy play when turning the big bottom knob as showed in my original video. And am not sure the rip fence consequently 'straighten itself' when locking.

The cast end is not pretty due to the missing/broken bit but I can really see how it would affect the play I am having. Only the top corner is broken while the rest (3/4 of it) is pretty much intact.

Look out for a really knackered old Startrite 175 / 275 and use it as a doner saw. Sell off the bits you don’t need as spares after a bit of clean up and usually you get your money back / small profit.

Really good suggestion, although because of where I live it's would be tricky to get a doner without spending more than necessary. If anyone on here go through that exercise though I would be a buyer for some parts for sure! Going through the manual I have realised that my machine has many many missing parts (not critical ones but still...)