SIP 12" Table Saw (with Dado Cutter)

[Guy Forks]

Hi Folks

I’ve just emigrated from FWW. I decided I’m fed up with trying to translate every thing.
Seeing as were in the same country now has any one out there got on of these SIP 12” table saws with all the bells and whistles.

I’ve had mine about 18 months had a little modification done on it in the form of a local engineering company attacking the arbour and now I can get the Fraud Dado set on.

I’m quite impressed. I spent about 5 months looking for a TS and very nearly got one sent over from the U.S but these things had just come out and for the money there good.

Glynn.

 

[brianhabby]

Hi Glyn.

Interested in the fact that you had the arbour modified. What was involved in the modification?

regards

Brian

 

[Guy Forks]

Hi Brian

Not a lot really is the answer to that.
The bull poo was finding a table saw in this country that could be adapted (I’m not saying a word about E.U regulations (I read the rules)).

After I set the saw up I went through the hand book and looked at the rather badly blown up drawing of the motor and arbour then went at it with an Allen key and spanner. After removing the Arbour I sat down and come up with a basic drawing with dimensions, just the total width needed to house the dado set (and I’m no draftsman). I looked through the phonebook for a local engineering company. Went down told them what I needed 2 days later come home and fitted it.

Total cost £96 Gord bless’em
Mind you the guy did say I got that cheap as it took them a whole lot longer then they anticipated. This stuff has to be accurate and the first time I tried it I was crouching down and to the side of the saw well out of the way of the blades hitting the switch with a long stick.

But it works a treat and we do thank the E.U (sorry) :twisted:

Best

Glynn

 

[Guy Forks]

All.

I just had a thought.

I better explain the “I love the E.U bit”.
Apparently (now this is what I’ve been told and seemed to be true).
It’s not illegal to sell dado cutter sets.
It’s not illegal to use dado cutter sets.
But it is illegal for a company to import a TS with an arbour length long enough to receive a dado set.
This is due to an E.U directive. If you live in the States you don’t have a problem. They have and do use them all the time.
There are apparently some ways of getting around certain parts of this rule see Scheppach When I was looking into this they had some type of dado blade out that could cut about ¼ of what the fraud set can cut.

If anyone knows of any changes in these rules since I last looked then please fell free to jump in.

Best
Glynn.

 

[Jake]

All.

I just had a thought.

I better explain the “I love the E.U bit”.
Apparently (now this is what I’ve been told and seemed to be true).
It’s not illegal to sell dado cutter sets.
It’s not illegal to use dado cutter sets.

True to here

But it is illegal for a company to import a TS with an arbour length long enough to receive a dado set.

False.

This is due to an E.U directive. If you live in the States you don’t have a problem. They have and do use them all the time.
There are apparently some ways of getting around certain parts of this rule see Scheppach When I was looking into this they had some type of dado blade out that could cut about ¼ of what the fraud set can cut.

If anyone knows of any changes in these rules since I last looked then please fell free to jump in.

Best
Glynn.

It's all about blade braking (mostly) and guarding (maybe) - blade braking is mandatory in the EU for (very obvious, undeniably good) safety reasons. Until you invest significant money into the engineering, blade braking and dado heads don't mix. Equally, crown guards don't mix with dado heads for obvious reasons, and SUVA guards are expensive.

The yanks have a rubbish H&S system, and a rubbish ndustrial safety record as a result (despite the very large penalties sometimes paid through the civil courts for injuring employees). So they don't require blade braking and they barely know what a riving knife or crown guard is. It follows that they haven't come across any reasons why a 'dado head' is a poor substitute for a safer table saw and other tools for "dado'"ing.

The Scheppach tooling can be braked to halt on their machines within the required (10?) seconds.

 

[John McM]

Not entirely certain but I think if the SIP 12" arbour is 30mm you can buy an arbour extension and dado set from Woodford

 

[Guy Forks]

If as you say blade braking is mandatory in the EU. How come you can buy machines with no electric break (or is this a new ruling (last 18month)) and you can buy the Dado sets.

Plus if the dado set is such a bad idea then it really shouldn’t have been shown on a British made woodworking programme “the Grate British Wood shop” where the idea was advertised big time.

As for them being unsafe well. A good maintenance regime care and attention and knowing what your doing.
I have no personal experience that 7 blades spinning round are any more dangerous then 1.

Sorry but I love the Dado set it’s fast, repeatable and accurate.

And yes it is a 30mm arbour.

Oh ya and I do agree with the H&S comment they seem to have trouble even keeping there cranes upright over there.



Best
Glynn

 

[Slim]

If as you say blade braking is mandatory in the EU. How come you can buy machines with no electric break (or is this a new ruling (last 18month)) and you can buy the Dado sets.

I don't know how new the legislation is (although I am sure it is older that 18 months), but saws sold in the EU must have a braked blade. The problem this causes is that the rapid slow down and the extra mass of a stacked dado blade combined, could cause the nut to spin off. Which as you can imagine, is not a good idea.

Plus if the dado set is such a bad idea then it really shouldn’t have been shown on a British made woodworking programme “the Grate British Wood shop” where the idea was advertised big time.

I couldn't agree with you more. I think there are much quicker and safer ways of achieveing the same result.

As for them being unsafe well. A good maintenance regime care and attention and knowing what your doing.
I have no personal experience that 7 blades spinning round are any more dangerous then 1.

See above.

 

[Digit]

On one table saw I had the brake only worked for as long as you contiued to push on the stop button.
I found this out as, being a member of the akward squad, I don't like the OFF switches with the cover that latches in the OFF position and normally cut the latch off.
The brake would then have worked with the original latched OFF switch but ceased to work that way once I cut the latch clip off.

Roy.

 

[Digit]

The Dado sets are no more dangerous in them selves Guy, it's simply a case that if you do get caught by one it will do a damn site more damage to you than a single blade.
Just as a large dog is not more likely to bite than a small one but can do more damage to you.

Roy.

 

[Guy Forks]

All
I was made aware of the dangers of having a breaked TS and using these sets when purchasing the set at the WW show at Alexander Palace.

The set then sat on a shelf for nearly 2 years. Then I spent 4 or 5 months looking into the right TS for me (unbreaked) and at a price I could afford. The SIP came (and mine still is) UNBREAKED.

If you use a set of dado cutters on a breaked machine you WILL get every thing you ask for that’s what I mean by "know what your doing".

I still luv'em.

Glynn

 

[Digit]

My SIP 10 inch isn't braked either.

Roy.

 

[Slim]

When did you buy yours Roy? Because mine is braked.

 

[Digit]

Between two and three years ago Simon.

Roy.

 

[Jake]

If as you say blade braking is mandatory in the EU. How come you can buy machines with no electric break (or is this a new ruling (last 18month)) and you can buy the Dado sets.

Because people are breaking the law, for better or worse, depending on your penchant.

 

[Guy Forks]

Jake.

Does this mean there was an error of judgement on the part of the “Great British Wood shop”. When he talked about how his friends were surprised when he said it was OK to use a dado cutter set?

Glynn.

 

[Jake]

There's nothing unlawful about using a dado head.

Whether it is worthwhile,when there are safer means of achieving the same end is debateable, but that's an issue of personal choice. Mine is that, I'd rather have a braked saw (and a proper riving knife, which is often missing from the 'it will take a dado head specials',as they are clones of crude US machinery, which is decades behind european standards).

It's the vendors (importers, rather than retailers, I think, but can't recall) who break the law by supplying non-braked machines.

 

[Philly]

As for all machines needing brakes, I believe the rule is it must come to a standstill within 10 seconds. If it does this it obviously doesn't need a brake.
Hope this helps
Philly

 

[BradNaylor]

We've not had a good beano on dado cutters for ages!

My thoughts are;

A table saw which stops within 10 seconds is a good thing. I used to have an old Wadkin which kept spinning for about 5 minutes. Very scary.

Dado cutters and breaked motors do not mix. Therefore dado cutters and table saws are not a good idea.

I can understand the attraction of dado cutters in a table saw in a production shop environment where a seperate saw may be dedicated to cutting housings, rebates, or whatever.

In a small shop however, I simply cannot envisage the situation where I would want to go to the hassle of removing the guarding and riving knife, replacing the saw blade with the cutters, messing around with shims to get the right width of cut, making a couple of cuts, and then reversing the whole process again. The whole thing could be accomplished just as accurately, more safely, and in a fraction of the time with a router and guide rail or jig.

We've all seen Norm do it - 'For this cut I have installed my dado head cutters in the table saw'. What we don't see is the 20 minutes it took to do it!

As for cutting tenons on the table saw with dado cutters that is just a complete no-no for me. Buy a cheap spindle moulder!

Cheers
Dan

 

[Digit]

Well Dan, as I admitted the other day I belong to the awkward squad, though I guess you'd already worked that out!
It takes a lot less than ten seconds to lose a finger, after that the remaining 4 minutes 50 seconds don't bother you.
Having worked for years in a pro shop on a large table saw with 12 other fellahs I never saw anyone get caught and none of the men ever had before I joined them.
Mind you they, as I, were trained under the old apprenticeship system where you learned to use these machines under direct supervision.
Locally a man cut most of his left upper arm off recently on a sliding chop saw as he repeatedly slid the work to the left with his left hand and 'chopped' with his right hand.
With training he would likely never have done anything so daft!
According to the press last week a woman lost her left hand with a similar machine, claiming the machine, 'had a mind of its own!'