Sharpening

[D_W]

the above discussion is exactly what I drone on about.

Not sure how the function of the cap iron was lost between the 1875 draft of holtzapffel and this text, but this text

Hasluck goes on to describe the economy of having accurately sharpened saws later. I would imagine that if I mention sharpening a rip saw at least once a project, not just when it's "dull", but as soon as it doesn't regulate itself in the cut without feeling the need to apply any extra force, it sounds odd given the large following of "send the saw to someone to be sharpened".

Hasluck refers to using well sharpened saws as being two hours ahead for the week at the jobsite.

All of this kind of stuff is what keeps people from actually doing much work by hand - it's rarely discussed, but it turns accurate hand work from seeming like a mountain into just intuitive exercise. Accurate as in being able to do rough work to at least match basic machines in accuracy, and in some cases better them. You can certainly learn to rip wood with less trouble to remove on the edges than you'd have from a cheap contractor's table saw where there's the odd bind here and there leaving a deep swirl in whatever you're cutting. Accurate hand ripping, which becomes routine, requires nothing more than removing any saw marks with a jointing plane and feeling for square at the same time - the plane will communicate with some experience whether or not the cut is out of square.

 

[mudman]

By whetstone, I mean sharpening stone. What I mean about Norton is how some of their responses either relayed to me or to retailers in terms of stones make it clear that doing anything special is sort of a distraction from their core business, which I believe is industrial and construction applications.

https://www.nortonabrasives.com/en-us
This is the US site, but the English will probably be interpretable in the UK. Norton has a lot of specialty grinding wheels, belts, papers, diamond drill/coring, concrete construction, etc. All of those things are fairly high priced or are consumable and high volume. They still have a big variety of sharpening stones, but I get the sense that they're not a main product compared to the higher volume and probably higher profit items.

I guess to put this in perspective, consider something even like a small part time knife maker. If a knife maker grinds 5-10 stainless knives a day, they'll go through about $25 in specialty belts. Or more if they are grinding really high vanadium steel. I think with what little grinding I do on a high speed 2x48 belt machine and I've probably put $300 of belts through my machines or a little more. Sounds wasteful, but they are consumable and cheap belts don't work the same way as modern belts - modern belts take over where wet wheels used to be needed, and red aluminum oxide paper (cheap) at high speed will just burn tools and knives in a hurry.

In a fabrication shop or a manufacturer, deburring wheels and belts and such would add up quickly and the customer is a constant customer.

Thanks D_W, that does make sense to me. I guess I was guilty of not considering the wider context of the supplier's business.
And your subsequent posts are very interesting. Picking up woodworking again after a fairly long lay off so hopefully will be interecting a bit more here again.

 

[D_W]

Thanks D_W, that does make sense to me. I guess I was guilty of not considering the wider context of the supplier's business.
And your subsequent posts are very interesting. Picking up woodworking again after a fairly long lay off so hopefully will be interecting a bit more here again.

sure -I was aware of the norton company size more or less because I had the same thought. In he past, Norton mentioned that their exclusive access to the pike washita wasn't really worth their time. and I kind of thought "what? you're the only company with access to the mine that has the good material in it and you sell sharpening stones and we know the ground stock is huge clear rock that can just be cut into whetstones, and it's not worth your time?"

And the answer was kind of yes, it wasn't worth their time. It's cyclical and there isn't enough demand to do it full time and opening and closing the mind and then shipping the stones to the N.E. USA to be processed just wasn't worth it. Then, I went out to look at their catalog and it was one of those moments where you just say "oh. I get it".

 

[Jacob]

Okay, been lurking for a long time now but your comment intrigued me. I've always thought of a whetstone as a sharpening stone (any) and so the main product that I know Norton for. Or do you mean something different by the term, something more specialised perhaps?

D_W may have been thinking of Norton Motorbikes. Norton Abrasives are probably the world's biggest supplier of whetstones, of all shapes and sizes.
n.b. "whetting" means sharpening, nothing to do with water unless you are wet whetting of course!

Difficult to pick though D_Ws long rambles but:

They have a tan combination stone of alumina and they grit rate the tan side at 1000 and refer to it as slightly softer, and designed to be used with water.

I wonder if yours is something like that.

No mine are all oil stones. Colour doesn't seem to relate to grit size either. Both orange and tan come as fine or medium. Coarse is always grey/black. Their grades coarse/medium/fine are all anyone needs, if they are consistent, whatever the colour.
Norton have cottoned on to the relatively recent fashion for waterstones - crazy sharpening gets everywhere! I guess they have to bow to fashion to some extent.
Edit: This link doesn't work unless you defeat the the rude word filter and replace "rubbish" with "cr ap" without a space. https://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/water-stones-are-rubbish/

 

[D_W]

I think D_W may have been thinking of Norton Motorbikes. Norton Abrasives are probably the world's biggest supplier of whetstones in all shapes and sizes.

uh, no. only if you literally didn't read anything that I wrote above.

I know the discussion of sharpening and grinding efficiency from an economic standpoint is above most peoples' heads, and another reason that I usually chuckle at the expense of people when "oh, the convex bevel is as good as anything, sellers really knows what he's talking about" comes up.

Well, if you have limited hand tool use among a lot of power tool use, it makes little difference. About as much as half hearted whetstone making matters for Norton.

Norton's released ceramic whetstones in 8x2 and 8x3 sizes, the latter listed from $139-$159 here. I don't think they'll have much luck with them, and they probably won't know why - and probably won't care.

 

[mudman]

D_W may have been thinking of Norton Motorbikes. Norton Abrasives are probably the world's biggest supplier of whetstones, of all shapes and sizes.
n.b. "whetting" means sharpening, nothing to do with water unless you are wet whetting of course!

Difficult to pick though D_Ws long rambles but:


No mine are all oil stones. Colour doesn't seem to relate to grit size either. Both orange and tan come as fine or medium. Coarse is always grey/black. Their grades coarse/medium/fine are all anyone needs, if they are consistent, whatever the colour.
Norton have cottoned on to the relatively recent fashion for waterstones - crazy sharpening gets everywhere! I guess they have to bow to fashion to some extent.
https://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/water-stones-are-rubbish/

Well yes, that is what prompted my question. What I think you've missed though is that D_W was saying that in the context of their complete product catalogue, it is small beer to the company.

n.b. I know what whetting means, I said so in the comment you quoted and D_W also said as much in his earlier reply.

n.b.2 Waterstones aren't a recent craze. They have been a traditional sharpening method in Japan (hence Japanese waterstones) for a very long time. Perhaps you refer to they only being introduced into the West in recent decades. BTW, how long do you have to wait for it to become 'established' rather than 'recent'? However, I guess that Norton have realised that people like using waterstones and have decided to enter the market. Nothing crazy about it, just a different medium available that has the ability to remove small bits of metal from a blade.

n.b.3 Your link doesn't work.

 

[Jacob]

...

n.b.2 Waterstones aren't a recent craze. ....

They are here and by all accounts very problematic compared to oil stones. One problem they have attempted to mitigate is a very expensive additive which makes water work more like, guess what, oil! It inhibits rust apparently.

n.b.3 Your link doesn't work.

Thanks for the link comment. Defeated by the rude word filter - see edit above.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

They are here and by all accounts very problematic compared to oil stones...

By all the accounts that agree with your opinions on something you know nothing about.

 

[Jacob]

They are here and by all accounts very problematic compared to oil stones...

By all the accounts that agree with your opinions on something you know nothing about.

I do know what I've read about them!
The first problem is simply the huge array of choices Tools - Sharpening - Japanese Waterstones - Page 1 - Workshop Heaven followed by the even bigger array of bits of kit
In the good old days there was only coarse/medium/fine oil stone, natural or more often man-made, in a wooden box, and sharpening wasn't a problem for anybody.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I've read oilstones are garbage. It must be true, because I've read it.

 

[D_W]

By all accounts? Strange language. I wonder how long continental European craftsmen have been using Belgian hones with water.. same with slates like the water of ayr..

And the Japanese hones mentioned above, along with sandstones that were used throughout Europe.

 

[Jacob]

I've read oilstones are garbage. It must be true, because I've read it.

Where did you read that?

 

[mudman]

I'd be interested in what you might have read. A quick Google reveals very few, mostly subjective, negative opinions. The link you gave above is another subjective opinion. They don't work for him, he doesn't like them, fair enough, they don't suit his way of working, doesn't mean they're rubbish.

 

[mudman]

I've read oilstones are garbage. It must be true, because I've read it.

Yes, lots of accounts of problems. They have a propensity to dish across the width and then are a pipper to flatten.

 

[Jacob]

I'd be interested in what you might have read. A quick Google reveals very few, mostly subjective, negative opinions. The link you gave above is another subjective opinion. They don't work for him, he doesn't like them, fair enough, they don't suit his way of working, doesn't mean they're rubbish.

In general that they are expensive, wear out fast, need flattening with another stone, need water which is messy, and water causes rust if not dried quickly.
Some of them are only a bit more expensive than oil stones but the other problems remain.
They seem to suit knife sharpeners which makes sense as water and food preparation go together and oil would be inconvenient. I think the fashion has spilled over from knife sharpening - they tend to be even more obsessive than woodwork sharpening enthusiasts!

 

[Jacob]

Yes, lots of accounts of problems. They have a propensity to dish across the width and then are a pipper to flatten.

Never need flattening if you use them properly. I've only done it once (in 50+ years of woodworking) just by way of experiment. Needn't have bothered.
You keep them flat by spreading the work load over the whole surface. A little bit of dishing is no problem anyway, except for jig users - who must have a flat surface - which is where all the modern sharpening problems seem to begin
Water of Ayr stone is interesting Scottish Stones seems to be another knife/razor sharpener. There a lots of lesser known stones used, including water stones, but the trad oil stone is the most common by far.

 

[D_W]

Never need flattening if you use them properly. I've only done it once (in 50+ years of woodworking) just by way of experiment. Needn't have bothered.
You keep them flat by spreading the work load over the whole surface. A little bit of dishing is no problem anyway, except for jig users - who must have a flat surface - which is where all the modern sharpening problems seem to begin
Water of Ayr stone is interesting Scottish Stones seems to be another knife/razor sharpener. There a lots of lesser known stones used, including water stones, but the trad oil stone is the most common by far.

The Oilstone is only common in the last 150. Before that, the only preferred Oilstone was the Turkish.

Charns and idwals were around, but they can be agonizingly slow.

The Belgian hone was extremely common and usually used with water. By carpenters. So were the slates common in England.

I used waterstones for quite some time and never needed anti-rust anything, and other than the intentionally soft stones, none were more messy than Oilstones. The most messy stone I can think of is a carborundum Corp medium or fine silicon carbide bench stone. They shed little grit everywhere and it's stuck to you and everything else with oil.

 

[Jacob]

..................none were more messy than Oilstones. The most messy stone I can think of is a carborundum Corp medium or fine silicon carbide bench stone. They shed little grit everywhere and it's stuck to you and everything else with oil.

You need to have on hand a collection of oily rags. Oil is much easier to clean up than water.

 

[D_W]

You need to have on hand a collection of oily rags. Much easier to keep clean than water.

There's a clear case of lack of exposure here.

waterstones range from the softest aoto, probably softer than a king stone to fused alumina with no pores - far harder than anything offered in oilstones. Though I've got a few oilstones of fused alumina (solid white) made for barbers from japan that say "barber oilstones". When the stone is more or less a pore-free ceramic slab, it doesn't matter what you use on it.

The idea that choosing between waterstones or oilstones is some kind of critical thing is nonsense.

 

[Jacob]

There's a clear case of lack of exposure here.

waterstones range from the softest aoto, probably softer than a king stone to fused alumina with no pores - far harder than anything offered in oilstones. Though I've got a few oilstones of fused alumina (solid white) made for barbers from japan that say "barber oilstones". When the stone is more or less a pore-free ceramic slab, it doesn't matter what you use on it.

The idea that choosing between waterstones or oilstones is some kind of critical thing is nonsense.

Water stones for kitchens, barbers etc (watery, sterile, culinary environment), oil stones for woodwork shops (dry environment, rust prone tools). Though you could use either of course, if you had to, but then have to put extra effort in to cleaning up.
PS kind of obvious really. I think water stones caught on because of the knife sharpening fraternity - even crazier than woodworkers! Also pleasingly Japanese and redolent of samurai swords - along with camellia oil, which also used to be really trendy!